CMBS 2017 > "CMUA 2022"

[kevinkin]

Is there a thread that discusses which units in CMBS can be reasonably carried over to sim current events? Or maybe a better way to address this, which ones should not be used?

Thanks.

Kevin

 

Edited September 4, 2022 by kevinkin

[chuckdyke]

34 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

which ones should not be used?

The US units I suppose. there are no Strykers, Bradley and Abrams.

 

[kevinkin]

Yes, I agree. I also think focusing on light infantry with a few standard AFVs thrown in might do OK. Smallish battle with plenty of cloud cover at night to "limit" air ops. Might be best to post an OOB and see what the gang thinks.

[Haiduk]

No NLAWs and pick-ups, alas ) Exactly this toy was a hero of initial phase of the war. 

[Chibot Mk IX]

Maybe we should look into modding?

UAZ-->pick-ups?

Corsar-->NLAWs

MTLBm 6MA-->YPR-765

 

 

 

 

[Artkin]

3 hours ago, Chibot Mk IX said:

Maybe we should look into modding?

UAZ-->pick-ups?

Corsar-->NLAWs

MTLBm 6MA-->YPR-765

 

 

 

 

Good idea, these items are generally neglected IMO

[kevinkin]

What vehicles are now standard or commonly used in the Ukraine war and found in the CMBS database? No need to be exact. 

Let's say the following categories to start:

Tanks and APCs (wheeled and tracked)

Thanks.

 

 

[Sorcerer117]

I would love to see the T80-BVM on Russian side, the tank was made public in 2017, within the game timeframe.

[Haiduk]

1 hour ago, Sorcerer117 said:

I would love to see the T80-BVM on Russian side, the tank was made public in 2017, within the game timeframe.

First contarct was signed in August 2017, but first upgraded tanks from contracted on 2018 batch in 31 tank were received by 61st naval infantry brigade in May 2018 for parade. Other part of batch was received during next several months. 

Edited October 4, 2022 by Haiduk

[Sorcerer117]

I guess its a "no" them =(

They could make a exception XD

[Andrew6850]

On 9/4/2022 at 6:57 AM, kevinkin said:

Is there a thread that discusses which units in CMBS can be reasonably carried over to sim current events? Or maybe a better way to address this, which ones should not be used?

Thanks.

Kevin

 

Hey Kevin,

I’ve been thinking about this topic a lot as well. Especially for quick battles in the stock game where the rarity for certain equipment is not reflective of reality (since the game came out so long ago and isn’t necessarily supposed to be realistic in that way).

Since the current war in Ukraine started I have been fairly regularly keeping up with videos covering it and I’ve seen a lot of the equipment that is being used along with some researching of equipment numbers.

From what I can tell, the vehicles and equipment that should be used on the Russian side are these:

-BMP-2 (by far the most common Russian IFV in service in Ukraine right now)

-Note that BMP-2Ms have been seen and destroyed but they are much, much more rare than standard BMP-2s

-BMP-3 (a fairly common IFV, you can see many pictures and videos of knocked out ones at least)

-BMP-3M (these are more rare than the base BMP-3 from what I’ve seen but telling them apart in a wreckage picture is difficult)

-Note that BMP-3Ms have not been spotted with ERA plates from what I’ve seen, and no APS or Shorta systems either

-BTR-82 and 82A (both variants of very common but from high level research on the internet it looks like there are more BRR-82a in service, note that I haven’t seen any BTRs equipped with the 14.5mm machine gun as seen in the game)

-MTLB (these are very common but note the other variants of the MTBs with heavy MGs and auto cannons are absent in the war from what I’ve seen)

-TIGR Cars (have been seen everywhere in the war)

-T-72B3 (this is the most common tank in the game -and real life I think- that Russia uses. Note there have been no reports of APS on these)

-T-90A (this is a pretty rare tank compared to the T-72B3

-T-90MS (It is confirmed through video evidence that there are some T-90MS’ being used but this would be ultra rare but again, probably no APS)

-All of the other vehicles and equipment like drones, cars, trucks, mortars and artillery have been seen throughout the conflict in large numbers

If anyone is still interested in this topic I’ll post what I’ve found for the Ukrainian Army in the war as well. This one is a lot more difficult because the vehicles/equipment currently being used by them is extensive but the in-game vehicles/equipment is limited.

Cheers,

Andrew

[kevinkin]

Thanks and we would all benefit from your thoughts re: UA. Recently, I have been sandboxing T-64 BM Bulats grouped with US "provided" HUMVEES around the Bakhmuts'ke sector. You can learn a bit about the tactics needed to survive. 

[Andrew6850]

From what I’ve read online the T-64 BM Bulats we’re not produced in large numbers, by far the most common tank Ukraine uses is the T-64BV but they have upgraded a large number of them to include thermals in 2017. Those aren’t modeling in the game since it was developed way before that.

For the Ukrainian vehicles in-game I believe the BMP-2 and BTR-70 are by far the most common whereas the BTR-4 is in service in far smaller numbers.

The only tank in game that is in use in large numbers is the T-64BV. I haven’t seen the other models in use, they may have been destroyed very early in the war though so depending on the scenario time you could have some.

This limits the Ukrainian player’s options in vehicle selection but there aren’t any other vehicles built into the game which they use like the various T-72 models or western APCs they have received.

You could use American 60mm mortar teams, Stinger teams, Javelin teams, Humvees like you mentioned, raven drone (to mimic Ukrainian small drones), and the M777 artillery. The problem is the difference in Uniforms but there is a mod that I’ve seen that changes the US Army skins to Ukrainian ones.

Cheers

Edited November 6, 2022 by Andrew6850
Double post

[kevinkin]

On 11/6/2022 at 6:22 PM, Andrew6850 said:

Cheers

Thanks. Will move over to the BV.

[Chelentano]

Hi, everybody.
I would also like to speak out about what is missing from CMBS. I will focus on Russia and Ukraine.
I will devote the first list to infantry weapons,
Then there will be a vehicle,
Artillery,
UAV,
I will make a complete list of my wishlist :
Pistols (of course it's not that important, but why not):
RU:
APS (maybe for some special parts)
MP-443
UA:
Fort 12/17
USA:
Glock
Automatic machines:
RU:
AK-12
VSS and AS VAL (silent weapons for scouts)
UA:
AKM (many videos where Ukrainian soldiers use them)
Malyuk/Vulkan-M (for special units)
AR-15 and SCAR(?) (if we cover lend lease)
USA:
M16
Machine guns (CMBS is very lacking large-caliber machine guns for RU and UA):
Ru:
NSV "Cliff"
"CORD"
UA:
DSHKM
KPV
Sniper complexes (a sore topic in the game and again RU and UA are deprived):
RU:
Mosinka ()
SVD-K
SV-98
SHF
ASVK
T-5000
UA:
Zbroyar Z-10
Fort 301
Knipex Alligator
Snipex Tyrannosaurus
USA:
M40
SR-25
CheyTac M200 «Intervention»
RPG and others:
RU:
RPG 27.28
RSHG-1/2
RPO ,,Bumblebee-M,,
UA:
RPG-18
From foreign:
M72 LAW, M141, Panzerfaust 3, RPG-7 (?) (produced in the Czech Republic, USA, etc.), Carl Gustav, MATADOR
USA:
Carl Gustaf and SMAW
ATGM:
UA:
Stugna, Barrier
From a foreign
Nlaw, Milan, ALCOTAN
USA:
SRAW 172 (?) (I don't know how widespread it is in the USA)
MANPADS:
RU:
Verba
UA:
Starstreak, Piorun
I would really like to see the following units in CMBS:
SOF - from all sides 
Marines - from all sides
VDV/Air assault troops Ukraine - in Russia and Ukraine  
Rosgvardiya/National Guard - in Russia and Ukraine
Territorial defense- in Ukraine 
I understand that you can do without a lot, but as they say in my homeland to walk so walk.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Chelentano

[Centurian52]

My idea of what is present in Ukraine and in what quantities is based on the Oryx blog. Equipment has changed over time. IIRC the most common Russian tank at the beginning of the war was the T-72B3 Obr. 2016, whereas right now it is the T-72B3. At the beginning of the war there were no T-62s or T-90Ms, now they are both present but rare. T-72Bs have become a lot more common over the course of the war, and are currently the second most common after the T-72B3. Adding up all of the Russian tanks knocked out so far and recorded on the Oryx blog (not counting all "unknown" tanks) the Russian tanks in Ukraine seem to have consisted of (keeping in mind that these numbers are not final, since the war isn't over yet):

19.25% T-72B3

16.71% T-72B

15.07% T-72B3 Obr. 2016

14.17% T-80BV

7.29% T-80U

5.73% T-72 Obr. 1989

4.91% T-80BVM

3.6% T-64BV

3.19% T-62M

2.87% T-72A

2.05% T-90A

1.8% T-72BA

0.66% T-62MV

0.66% T-72AV

0.66%  T-80UE

0.41% T-90M

0.25% T-72B3 Obr. 2014

0.16% T-64A

0.16% T-80UK

0.08% T-80UM2

0.08% T-80BVK

0.08% T-62 Obr. 1967

Which frustratingly does not add up to 100%, but I assume that's down to a rounding error. If I were making the hard calls about which vehicles to include in the game I don't think I would include anything less common than the T-72A, since at that point more than 90% of the Russian tanks would be represented. Unfortunately that would leave out the T-90M, but so it goes. The most important tanks are the T-72B3, T-72B, and the T-72B3 Obr. 2016. With just those three tanks you can represent just over 50% of the Russian tanks that have actually been used in Ukraine.

I don't have the time to run the same numbers for IFVs, but you get the idea. The Russians have a huge diversity of vehicles, some more common than others, some fairly new and some which would be more at home in CMCW. It looks like the BMP-2 is by far the most common, with BTR-82s being the next most common, still significant numbers of BMP-3s, and a surprising number of BMP-1s. It looks like there have been a significant number of BTR-80s (Oryx records 133 knocked out BTR-80s so far), but in general IFVs appear to be much more common than APCs.

Edited November 14, 2022 by Centurian52

[Andrew6850]

Great post Centurian, Oryx has been a very helpful resource with keeping up on vehicle and equipment loses. The CMBS missions that I play with my friends are mostly Ukraine vs Russia with limitations on what the Ukrainian and Russian armies can bring to the battle to be a bit more realistic to what is observed in the war.
As far as game play I’ve found it be a lot more balanced and enjoyable to play CMBS. When all vehicles and equipment in the game are allowed in a quick battle it usually means that the US Army dominates the Russian one and the Russian Army dominates the Ukrainian one. But when you apply the more realistic limitations to the equipment and vehicles the Russian and Ukrainian armies are surprisingly on par with each other. It makes for more interesting and intense attrition fights in quick battles or scenarios.

Andrew

[Simcoe]

On 11/16/2022 at 11:13 AM, Andrew6850 said:

Great post Centurian, Oryx has been a very helpful resource with keeping up on vehicle and equipment loses. The CMBS missions that I play with my friends are mostly Ukraine vs Russia with limitations on what the Ukrainian and Russian armies can bring to the battle to be a bit more realistic to what is observed in the war.
As far as game play I’ve found it be a lot more balanced and enjoyable to play CMBS. When all vehicles and equipment in the game are allowed in a quick battle it usually means that the US Army dominates the Russian one and the Russian Army dominates the Ukrainian one. But when you apply the more realistic limitations to the equipment and vehicles the Russian and Ukrainian armies are surprisingly on par with each other. It makes for more interesting and intense attrition fights in quick battles or scenarios.

Andrew

What do you restrict on both sides besides the fantasy tanks like T 90AM?

[Andrew6850]

The two posts that I made above go into detail on what vehicles and equipment we use in games based on observations and some research. It does restrict the number of available options for us in quick battles but the end result makes it more realistic to real life but more importantly, a more balanced game between Ukraine and Russia imo.

Something I didn’t mention earlier is that both Ukrainian and Russian aircraft are not used in the way that they are modeling in the game. I think that in the game the aircraft circle around fairly high up to spot targets and come in low for attack runs. What I’ve seen in the war in Ukraine is that both sides’ aircraft are forced very low to the ground to avoid medium or longe range SAMs. With that being said, it would probably be most realistic to prevent the use of aircraft on either side due to the way they are modeled in-game. Still not sure about that one though.

[Centurian52]

3 hours ago, Simcoe said:

What do you restrict on both sides besides the fantasy tanks like T 90AM?

No Oplots either. The Ukrainians only had a handful at the beginning of the war and I haven't seen much evidence of them showing up in combat. Bulats should be very rare as well. For the most part the Ukrainian tanks should be T-64BVs (out of what's available in CMBS).

For Ukraine:

44.58% T-64BV

17.03% T-64BV Zr. 2017

8.98% T-72M/M1

8.36% T-80BV

7.12% T-72B

4.02% T-72AMT

2.79% T-72AV

2.48% T-64BM 'Bulat'

2.17% T-64B1M

0.93% T-72 'Ural'

0.62% T-64BM2 'Bulat'

0.31% T-64BVK 

0.31% T-64B

0.31% T-64A

Edited November 17, 2022 by Centurian52

[Chibot Mk IX]

maybe we should think out of box

How about mod CMSF2?

YPR-765 , FV432, pickup trucks. 

And soon, Leo 1 + Leo 2 

 

Too bad no NLAW, but maybe we can use high proficiency AT-13, SRAAW(Heavy) ATGM gunner to simulate the NLAW?

 

 

[Andrew6850]

I agree, there are many vehicles in CMSF that could be used in CMBS.

Along with trucks and Leopards I would love to see the BMP-1 on both sides. As of now it seems to be one of the primary IFVs used by Ukraine and Russia.

Andrew

[JM Stuff]

short infos if this can help !

 

 

but what is CMUA ?

[Andrew6850]

That’s helpful to look at what already exists across the titles.

Ideally we could get the BMP-1’s and their variants from either CMSF2 or CMCW to go over to CMBS for Russia and Ukraine. Even the T-62Ms have been seen in pretty large numbers fielded by Russia.

And of course the BM-21 Grad and cluster munitions from CMCW  

[JM Stuff]

3 minutes ago, Andrew6850 said:

That’s helpful to look at what already exists across the titles.

Ideally we could get the BMP-1’s and their variants from either CMSF2 or CMCW to go over to CMBS for Russia and Ukraine. Even the T-62Ms have been seen in pretty large numbers fielded by Russia.

And of course the BM-21 Grad and cluster munitions from CMCW  

Yes I was interrested to see the news vehicles in BS and compare with others titles, and and took first a picture from the BFC webpage, before buying the game !

but dont do also about weapons !!

But what is CMUA ?

UA ukrainian ?

Edited February 24, 2023 by JM Stuff