How much recon is enough?

[Flibby]

I have realised that a lot of my issues when attacking came from two things. Firstly, moving units too far at once, leading to units caught out in the open, and sending platoons out without first scoping the route by sending scouts. I read somewhere that you should not send a team anywhere a scout had not been, or a platoon somewhere a team had not been first.

My question now is how best to use scouts. Should I be trying to identify all of the enemy positions before moving the bulk of my forces from cover, or is this too cautious and I should just be moving scouts a certain distance ahead of the main body? When I've done the latter previously I've had issues because an enemy can be unspotted by the scouts and then open up when the main body rolls into a kill sack.

Finally, how often do you engage in recon by fire with scouts? Or do you tend to sit and spot with then in good op spots?

[domfluff]

Wargaming is stochastic, so nothing will ever give you perfect information.

The question then falls to you - if you look at your scheme of manoeuvre, see a piece of terrain and think "gee, it'd really suck if there was an atgm team hiding in there", then you really have a few choices:

 

You can get eyes-on and try to spot something in there.

You can arrange for a recon by fire, exposing your scout position, but perhaps forcing a response.

You can send a scout element into the terrain piece to actively clear it

You could arrange for indirect fires to proactively deny this terrain feature.

 

Each option involves accepting a different level of risk, and each provides a different level of information and result. Which is best is part of the Art of the thing - the probabilistic basis of wargaming decisions means that there usually won't be a best answer, just a least-worst one, and which one is correct for you will differ.

 

Ultimately, you can't spot everything, so the trick is to engage with the things that really matter - to read the terrain and identify the areas that are going to cause you issues, so that your limited resources can be leveraged to the greatest effect.

[Halmbarte]

A good first thing is to flip the map around. If I was the enemy where would I put an ambush, a ATGM, a FO, and so forth. 
 

Once you’ve identified potential trouble spots resolve them as above. Personally I love to target fantastic FO positions with artillery. Live by the tube, die by the tube…

H

[chuckdyke]

9 hours ago, Flibby said:

Finally, how often do you engage in recon by fire with scouts?

It is combined arms. A scout on 'Hunt' rarely spots anything. A 'Veteran' unit with binoculars covered and concealed from an advantage point might. Spotting is part of the probing phase of an attack. Hundred pairs of eyes will spot the enemy unit more often than a single pair. In one battle a scouting unit on 'Hunt' received fire. His Regimental HQ got the tentative contact before he nervously returned to his HQ unit. Your C2 is all important during the probing phase of an attack. Patton advance till they start shooting at you. His specialty was the pursuit, so it makes sense. 

[chuckdyke]

First read the mission. The attack on Seelow Heights is a classic. Destroy Panzer Division Infantry will spot armour from 1 km away. Scouting is done by all of the first wave and scouting becomes probing. The Soviet Infantry didn't have radio, so the second wave got tentative contacts from the first wave. When you ask questions like that please quote the scenario. An Elite Sniper Unit in the 21st century has besides radio also satellite communication. You will lose some units just make sure that the enemy looks a lot less handsome than you upon conclusion. 

[Bil Hardenberger]

10 hours ago, Flibby said:

I have realised that a lot of my issues when attacking came from two things. Firstly, moving units too far at once, leading to units caught out in the open, and sending platoons out without first scoping the route by sending scouts. I read somewhere that you should not send a team anywhere a scout had not been, or a platoon somewhere a team had not been first.

My question now is how best to use scouts. Should I be trying to identify all of the enemy positions before moving the bulk of my forces from cover, or is this too cautious and I should just be moving scouts a certain distance ahead of the main body? When I've done the latter previously I've had issues because an enemy can be unspotted by the scouts and then open up when the main body rolls into a kill sack.

Finally, how often do you engage in recon by fire with scouts? Or do you tend to sit and spot with then in good op spots?

In my opinion, you can never scout too much... it is something that should be a constant focus, from first turn to last. 

Bottom line, I rarely enter a game with a plan in hand.. I only form a plan after I have done as thorough a recon as possible and uncovered as much about the enemy disposition as I can... still I do not stop there, even after I have decided on a course of action... I continue to scout, as the enemy is constantly reacting, or being proactive.. with out a plan to gain intel on those activities you will be taken by surprise and take unnecessary casualties.

I have written a lot about this subject... here are some links to my blog posts that I think will help answer your questions.. or at least maybe get you to start thinking a little differently about what recon really means. 

• Reconnaissance
• The Patience to See (written by @pnzrldr )
• Command Push
• Recon Pull - my preferred method
• Platoon Scouts
• Listening Halts
• Masked Movement
• The Decision Process

Edited June 18, 2022 by Bil Hardenberger

[Flibby]

Some really good ideas here. Thanks all @chuckdyke @domfluff @Halmbarte

 

I do like  @Bil Hardenberger's idea of not having a fixed plan before the mission - I get from your blog that I have read previously about the different attack avenues for infantry / armoured units but beyond that I find it incredibly difficult to work out a plan in my head when I don't know the enemies disposition. The times that I do form a detailed plan, 'this is where I'm going to put this SBF position, this is where I am going to assault from...' only to find out that there's an MG over-watching that SBF position. I get that not every SBF position is going to be entered in secret, but it sure helps.

 

I'm going to have a play around with this to see what I can find to work best but I may be back with screenshots 

 

[chuckdyke]

6 hours ago, Flibby said:

the different attack avenues

That is for Soviet infantry WW2, infantry don't have communication. The scenario already says attack so the only way to get contacts is by having the first wave probing the second wave will get his contacts by moving through the positions of the first wave. The third wave the final assault. 21st century the intel is provided by 6men listening patrols with satellite communications. It depends which game you play. I find WW2 Soviet a challenge with no problems getting contacts it is by finding the means to update the situation to the HQs so that the Battalion is aware of the changing situation. I don't worry about a fixed plan as the situation keeps changing but the artillery needs to be updated too and with the call-in times Set Piece attack with the Soviet is set piece. It makes it interesting you play the game as you do chess. The pawns are expendable. Poor Soviet grunts. With Soviet artillery I have a few protocols I think are realistic but may conflict with @Bil HardenbergerHard Cat rules. Cease fire is automatic unless the observer will get the tentative contacts from the attacking forces. 

[Codreanu]

How much recon is enough? More than you really think, in my experience. I find that thorough recon usually saves you time in the end even if it takes longer at the beginning because if you can work out the enemy's defenses it's a lot easier to pick them apart rather than accidentally bumbling into a strong point, losing lots of men, and then having to regroup and attack again. It's a continual process too, I always try and have a recce screen in front of my main body even if it's just a simple run across a street. I still struggle with keeping my scouts alive a lot of the time but I think the key is always having another element overwatching them and moving your scouts in bounds, maybe 15-30m at a time or even less before giving them a pause order, and if you feel like you're getting close to a good spot for an enemy position you can move to a hunt or slow order with pauses. It's slow, but like I said at the beginning, it will save you time in the long run.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

Within the time constraints of any given battle, PBEM, or otherwise, I am unbelievably slow and methodical with all the recon I can manage.

The old adage works well: never send a team anywhere a scout hasn't been. Never send a squad anywhere a team hasn't been. Never send a platoon anywhere a squad hasn't been and never send vehicles anywhere infantry hasn't been.

[chuckdyke]

Scouting, commit all of the first wave. Scout A received fire but makes no contact. Scout B gets the tentative contact. Don't send a scout anywhere unless you can provide an overwatch. Soviet attack centers around their armor who has the radios. 

 

[Flibby]

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Scouting, commit all of the first wave. Scout A received fire but makes no contact. Scout B gets the tentative contact. Don't send a scout anywhere unless you can provide an overwatch. Soviet attack centers around their armor who has the radios. 

 

 

 

 

This is a point that I always struggle with re overwatch. If I have to move a unit to provide overwatch for a scout - by definition the enemy that I would be engaging with the overwatch, can also engage me. That being the case:

 

1) is there any point in scouting if I am moving units into sight of any possible enemy anyway to overwatch them;

2) If the overwatch team/vehicle gets into position and is engaged, what then? Do you escape and find somewhere else to scout now you have some information about the enemy, or do you build up a greater base of fire and then perform a platoon/company attack on whatever you have discovered, therefore committing yourself to a plan of action?

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, Flibby said:

is there any point in scouting if I am moving units into sight of any possible enemy anyway to overwatch them;

Read the terrain from RL observe from a shadow through a shadow and you will remain invisible. Unfortunately, shadows are not modelled in the game, I think. But shrub permits you to observe through it if you are next to it you will remain invisible for some length of time. A moving scout is unlikely to spot anything, the guys with binoculars who are on overwatch will. Good overwatch position is the bocage in Normandy.

[Freyberg]

On 6/18/2022 at 4:17 AM, Flibby said:

I read somewhere that you should not send a team anywhere a scout had not been, or a platoon somewhere a team had not been first.

I kind of disagree with this axiom (or at least the over-application of it - there is some truth in it).

One of the problems with great caution is that you make yourself a target for artillery, which can be devastating for infantry.

Just as there is 'recon by stealth' and 'recon by fire', there is also 'recon by haste' - in certain situations, it can work to throw your men forward, as long as they are dispersed and using cover. You'll take some initial losses, but you'll learn a lot and the sooner you close with the enemy, the sooner you can 'grab him by the belt'.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

19 minutes ago, Flibby said:

 

This is a point that I always struggle with re overwatch. If I have to move a unit to provide overwatch for a scout - by definition the enemy that I would be engaging with the overwatch, can also engage me. That being the case:

 

1) is there any point in scouting if I am moving units into sight of any possible enemy anyway to overwatch them;

2) If the overwatch team/vehicle gets into position and is engaged, what then? Do you escape and find somewhere else to scout now you have some information about the enemy, or do you build up a greater base of fire and then perform a platoon/company attack on whatever you have discovered, therefore committing yourself to a plan of action?

The answer to these questions are “it depends”. The objective of recon in a recon pull is to find the enemy, his dispositions and as much of his TO&E as you can in order to formulate plans to attack. In a command push then it’s there to engage the enemy along the chosen avenue of approach to clear the way for the main body.

The link that Bil posted above to the article on his blog about having the patience to see is really a great read and if you haven’t already then I’d recommend doing so.

MMM

[Erwin]

On 6/19/2022 at 5:25 AM, Freyberg said:

One of the problems with great caution is that you make yourself a target for artillery, which can be devastating for infantry.

Just as there is 'recon by stealth' and 'recon by fire', there is also 'recon by haste' - in certain situations, it can work to throw your men forward, as long as they are dispersed and using cover. You'll take some initial losses, but you'll learn a lot and the sooner you close with the enemy, the sooner you can 'grab him by the belt'.

I think the tactic to choose depends on the size of the map.  On larger maps one usually can keep the bulk of one's forces in cover and immune from enemy arty while one splits off a couple of scout teams from every platoon and send them forward to spot enemy positions and his main assets.  I play only large scenarios and find this tactic works every time.

Perhaps "Recon by haste" works if the map is smaller and there are less/no places to hide the bulk of one's forces.

[chuckdyke]

On 6/19/2022 at 7:31 PM, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

“it depends

I agree with that. The scenario, if it says attack or assault your options are time limited. probe and meeting is different again. It is a matter of choice either a two men team enters a house on hunt, or you give a 15 second burst with a .50 MG.