AI spotting my hidden units from >200m away?

[nathan1776]

I'm playing the CMSF2 tutorial scenario ("Ambush") on Iron difficulty and set all of my infantry to Hide, but they're still being spotted by the enemy AI from like >200m.  Why?

I saw that the unit statuses flicker between 'Hide' and 'Spotting'; so is it that the AI is spotting them when they're poking their heads up?  Is there any way to stop them from doing that?

Edited May 23, 2022 by nathan1776

[A Canadian Cat]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:17 AM, nathan1776 said:

I saw that the unit statuses flicker between 'Hide' and 'Spotting'; so is it that the AI is spotting them when they're poking their heads up? 

Yes

On 5/23/2022 at 3:17 AM, nathan1776 said:

Is there any way to stop them from doing that?

No, hiding is the way to reduce the time spent looking around so you are already on the mode that reduces the chances of getting spotted.

Your screen shot shows a lot of men in those windows. My suggestion would be to have a two man scout team to watch over the road and have the other men close by in another building or behind the building.

[Vacillator]

2 hours ago, IanL said:

hiding is the way to reduce the time spent looking around

In a recent CMRT game it reduced it so much that several T34s trundled by while my PF team were hiding in some trees by the road.  Understandable in real life I suppose...

[chuckdyke]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:17 PM, nathan1776 said:

I'm playing the CMSF2 tutorial scenario ("Ambush") on Iron difficulty and set all of my infantry to Hide, but they're still being spotted by the enemy AI from like >200m.  Why?

I saw that the unit statuses flicker between 'Hide' and 'Spotting'; so is it that the AI is spotting them when they're poking their heads up?  Is there any way to stop them from doing that?

There is a trick to position your troops near the walls opposite the windows but let them still look outside that window. Great for snipers and observers. They also don't position themselves on balconies. 

[Erwin]

1 hour ago, chuckdyke said:

There is a trick to position your troops near the walls opposite the windows but let them still look outside that window. Great for snipers and observers. They also don't position themselves on balconies. 

Balconies in CM are generally a death trap.  The "trick" re keeping troops away from windows is to give them 180 degree arcs away from the windows so the troops position themselves at the far wall.  Of course if one removes the 180 degree arc, and they see a target, they will rush to the windows to fire.

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, Erwin said:

they will rush to the windows to fire.

You're wrong if you give them a pause command. To be right with this game you need to study macro management. 

[chuckdyke]

*SPOILER* SF2 Breaking the Bank. The way to position observers, snipers etc. On the top floor with balconies. Make him face away towards a direction where there are no windows or balconies. Now give him a pause command before placing a cover arc. What I know I know from somebody else. You can do something similar if you want to split units inside transport. 

[chuckdyke]

On 5/23/2022 at 3:17 PM, nathan1776 said:

I saw that the unit statuses flicker between 'Hide' and 'Spotting'; so is it that the AI is spotting them when they're poking their heads up?  Is there any way to stop them from doing that?

The observer is the HQ unit I wouldn't position the guy with binoculars and a radio in the same vicinity as the MG position. I showed how you can create a Key-Hole position inside a building. My sniper unit won't be easily spotted. Your MG position would be better off on the lower floors. Once they receive fire or an assault it is hard to withdraw. 

[ncc1701e]

On 5/31/2022 at 8:31 AM, chuckdyke said:

*SPOILER* SF2 Breaking the Bank. The way to position observers, snipers etc. On the top floor with balconies. Make him face away towards a direction where there are no windows or balconies. Now give him a pause command before placing a cover arc. What I know I know from somebody else. You can do something similar if you want to split units inside transport. 

Thanks I will try this pause command in my current PBEM: Al Amarah scenario against an human is very funny. I am learning psychological warfare.

[nathan1776]

Thank you all for your help!  It still seems a little unrealistic to me that people in moving technicals could spot my guys from 200-300 meters when they're just peeking their heads up.  But at least now I hopefully know how to avoid them getting spotted.

[chuckdyke]

4 hours ago, nathan1776 said:

200-300 meters

Modern thermals make a tank spot a sniper in a window and take him or her out. Observers shouldn't be positioned near windows. How do you know they were spotted by the technical?

Edited June 2, 2022 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

7 hours ago, ncc1701e said:

Thanks I will try this pause command in my current PBEM

First make him face a position which is safe.

Edited June 1, 2022 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

14 hours ago, ncc1701e said:

I am learning psychological warfare.

The vulnerability in this game are the soft factors especially in modern warfare. This is the only game which I know takes it to this level aka the will to fight. You achieve it when your opponent presses the cease fire button. They do it when they keep losing units when they don't have an idea where the fire was coming from. 

[FlemFire]

 

18 hours ago, nathan1776 said:

Thank you all for your help!  It still seems a little unrealistic to me that people in moving technicals could spot my guys from 200-300 meters when they're just peeking their heads up.  But at least now I hopefully know how to avoid them getting spotted.

 

To be fair, it is very unusual to get spotted like that. I tested the scenario and it's actually considerably worse than you even described: technicals roll up and make INSTANT spots on you, regardless of hide, target arcs, hide w/o deploying, etc.

 

Makes me wonder if it's part of the scenario design. I've played enough PBEMs and scenarios to know this isn't normal at all. The scenario itself is also listed as a 'Tutorial' so maybe it's just trying to illuminate some aspect of the gameplay instead of presenting normal aspects.

[womble]

1 hour ago, Khalerick said:

Makes me wonder if it's part of the scenario design. I've played enough PBEMs and scenarios to know this isn't normal at all. The scenario itself is also listed as a 'Tutorial' so maybe it's just trying to illuminate some aspect of the gameplay instead of presenting normal aspects.

There is nothing in scenario design which changes the spotting algorithm. It has to be to do with the specific tactical situation. Some buildings provide better concealment than others. There are myriad factors determining who can see what at any given time; analysing what's actually going on probably requires a game save.

[nathan1776]

1 hour ago, Khalerick said:

To be fair, it is very unusual to get spotted like that. I tested the scenario and it's actually considerably worse than you even described: technicals roll up and make INSTANT spots on you, regardless of hide, target arcs, hide w/o deploying, etc.

Makes me wonder if it's part of the scenario design. I've played enough PBEMs and scenarios to know this isn't normal at all. The scenario itself is also listed as a 'Tutorial' so maybe it's just trying to illuminate some aspect of the gameplay instead of presenting normal aspects.

Thank you!  I actually bounced off / gave up on CMSF2 because of it, it just seemed ridiculous to me.  So it's a relief to hear that the game isn't normally like that.  I'll have to try some of the other scenarios.

[FlemFire]

5 hours ago, womble said:

There is nothing in scenario design which changes the spotting algorithm. It has to be to do with the specific tactical situation. Some buildings provide better concealment than others. There are myriad factors determining who can see what at any given time; analysing what's actually going on probably requires a game save.

 

It's a scenario. You can boot it up and play either side from Turn 1 and see what happens. The dynamics of the mission are atypical.

For all I know the scenario design is that the enemy just knows to shoot the building, but it is absolutely not normal for technicals to spot Hiding soldiers inside buildings 200-300+ meters away within 15s while simultaneously driving around. That is straight up borg spotting levels not available to anyone, least of all uncons.

[George MC]

21 hours ago, Khalerick said:

 

It's a scenario. You can boot it up and play either side from Turn 1 and see what happens. The dynamics of the mission are atypical.

For all I know the scenario design is that the enemy just knows to shoot the building, but it is absolutely not normal for technicals to spot Hiding soldiers inside buildings 200-300+ meters away within 15s while simultaneously driving around. That is straight up borg spotting levels not available to anyone, least of all uncons.

I'm the designer of that training scenario and can confirm there is nothing in that re game engine or design that involves em spotting your guys.

However, spotting and buildings and guys inside are 'depends' functions with lots of variables as @womble has outlined. So whatever is going on its not a scenario design issue. The AI has no hidden bonus. It spots/shoots/reacts same as player TAC AI pixeltruppen do.

[FlemFire]

55 minutes ago, George MC said:

I'm the designer of that training scenario and can confirm there is nothing in that re game engine or design that involves em spotting your guys.

However, spotting and buildings and guys inside are 'depends' functions with lots of variables as @womble has outlined. So whatever is going on its not a scenario design issue. The AI has no hidden bonus. It spots/shoots/reacts same as player TAC AI pixeltruppen do.

 

Well something is different. I've hundreds of hours in SF2 in both scenarios and PBEMs and have never seen spotting of that speed and accuracy ever. We're talking near instant spotting of enemies 200-300m away, in buildings, hiding, and the spotting is done by uncons in moving vehicles. Nothing about that is correct.

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Khalerick said:

Well something is different. I've hundreds of hours in SF2 in both scenarios and PBEMs and have never seen spotting of that speed and accuracy ever.

I think I have the answer. I think the cover of his hidden unit was sprung by a red spy unit. I experienced such a unit in one of the NATO battles. If you're lucky you get a fleeing tentative contact. He also plays on Iron and if it is not a bug the spy unit had no Icon for the blue forces when I played the German army. Possibly he entered the building the Red Spy left the building and gave a strong tentative contact to the Red Technical Unit. If a scenario says strong population density, I take this into account. *SPOILER* The German scenario was Halt Hammerzeit. I thought the fleeing contact was a bug, but I suspect strongly it was a spy unit. A unit with no icon makes it extremely hard to spot. I managed it only once. I still don't rule out it is a bug but I don't think so now. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by chuckdyke

[nathan1776]

22 hours ago, George MC said:

I'm the designer of that training scenario and can confirm there is nothing in that re game engine or design that involves em spotting your guys.

However, spotting and buildings and guys inside are 'depends' functions with lots of variables as @womble has outlined. So whatever is going on its not a scenario design issue. The AI has no hidden bonus. It spots/shoots/reacts same as player TAC AI pixeltruppen do.

So, was it your intention to have the AI spot the hidden US soldiers as quickly as they do?  It seemed to me that I couldn't execute the ambush as it was intended to be executed (waiting until the enemy were right in front of me, so they would get shot at from the flank by my other soldiers).

[George MC]

42 minutes ago, nathan1776 said:

So, was it your intention to have the AI spot the hidden US soldiers as quickly as they do?  It seemed to me that I couldn't execute the ambush as it was intended to be executed (waiting until the enemy were right in front of me, so they would get shot at from the flank by my other soldiers).

Nope. There is nothing you do in the editor that will enhance the ability to spot - least nothing you can dot hat a player can also do. Spotting is a game engine thing.

[nathan1776]

15 minutes ago, George MC said:

Nope. There is nothing you do in the editor that will enhance the ability to spot - least nothing you can dot hat a player can also do. Spotting is a game engine thing.

I'm not sure you understood my question: when you were developing the scenario, were you able to get the AI to enter the kill zone of the L-shaped ambush before you started engaging them?  Or were you seeing the same behavior I'm describing, where the AI were spotting your units before they entered the kill zone?

 

[JM Stuff]

On 5/31/2022 at 4:33 AM, Erwin said:

Balconies in CM are generally a death trap.  The "trick" re keeping troops away from windows is to give them 180 degree arcs away from the windows so the troops position themselves at the far wall.  Of course if one removes the 180 degree arc, and they see a target, they will rush to the windows to fire.

Interresting point.

JM

[JM Stuff]

On 5/31/2022 at 8:18 AM, chuckdyke said:

You're wrong if you give them a pause command. To be right with this game you need to study macro management. 

+1

JM