How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[kimbosbread]

1 minute ago, The_Capt said:

I think you missed the main thrust of my entire post.  Fantasy frameworks happen all the time.  Putin did it in Ukraine and rational people in the West did it for COVID.  In both cases reality did not care on wit when it came crashing on either.  People invent all sorts of frameworks is my central point.  Religion is one of the biggest ever invented.  People may laugh at you in one room but in the one down the hall they will celebrate you, which one do people tend to stay in?

That’s extremely possible, I had a half bottle of rioja on top of some dayquil as a result of whatever flavor of cold is going around in the US.

I’m familar with the idea having good frameworks, and I consider them to be part of what I’ll term the “Batman Fallacy”. That is, Bruce Wayne is the smart man ever, and given time, can prepare for anything.

Maybe I’m a contrarian and nihilist, but I don’t think you can be perfectly prepared for most major events. Limber state of mind, strong consititution, good principles, maybe, but something more fleshed out than that? As much as a I hate agile, I’m very much on team yolo we’ll adapt.

[dan/california]

28 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

I think you missed the main thrust of my entire post.  Fantasy frameworks happen all the time.  Putin did it in Ukraine and rational people in the West did it for COVID.  In both cases reality did not care on wit when it came crashing on either.  People invent all sorts of frameworks is my central point.  Religion is one of the biggest ever invented.  People may laugh at you in one room but in the one down the hall they will celebrate you, which one do people tend to stay in?

Invading Iraq was a far worse case of magical thinking than anything anyone outside of China has done about COVID.. Outside of Taiwan, Australia , and New Zealand no country was even minimally competent, but in the end the bleeping thing is so contagious it didn't matter very much. Different countries tried very different strategies with only modestly divergent results. Trust me I have had it three times despite getting every shot they would give me and trying probably too hard to follow all the other stay safe advice. The virus is simply so contagious it is uncontainable without turning off civilization. 

China's response is a whole different story, they blew it utterly at both the beginning, and the end. I can rant about for hours, but with one or two exceptions you folks haven't been that bad.

Edited September 11, 2023 by dan/california

[chuckdyke]

I have sympathy for the US people. The politics of Isolationism is knocking every year louder. I really can't blame them. European members of NATO should have policies so that they can be responsible for their own security. To beat Russia that is for Russians to embrace true democracy, right now dictators still rely on their misguided sense of patriotism. Settlement could be freedom of navigation on the Black Sea it is not a Russian Lake like the North Sea is not a British Lake or Sea.

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, The_Capt said:

I have largely ignored you because it is pretty clear that you are not in fact interested in actually learning anything on this forum.  However, in reality this is an honest question that some lurkers may also be asking.  Why can’t the US, or NATO or an alliance in between “win this war in 4 weeks and just end this brutal war?”  Don’t need an essay really:

-  Put the nuclear escalation to the side for arguments sake but we will come back to it.

-    A US direct incursion into Ukraine or this war is going to drive a massive amount of support into Putin’s arms, to the point he might actually get full mobilization support.  A fully mobilized and galvanized Russia is a scary beast particularly since they will likely be heavily backed by both China and Iran as they will see the entire expansion of the war as a chance to defeat the US by proxy.  So now the US has four weeks to push Russia out of Ukraine, could they do it?  Probably?  Would it end the war…no way.  It would likely expand it as Russia gears up for a serious fight because now it has reason to have one. The totality of your position is that you are in fact pointing madly at a “limited war” but your solution is “more limited war”…oh wait maybe you are not talking about a limited war.

- ok, to defeat Russia, truly defeat them, it means not simply driving them out of Ukraine.  It means total defeat of Russia as a nation.  The destruction of Russian Will to fight.  This means going into Russia itself and removing its ability to generate that Will.  So we are talking invasion, defeat in detail and occupation…of Russia.  The military force the US would need to do that is well outside the US military current envelope, we are talking millions of troops.  Let’s pretend Russia can be occupied, it is a big country (look at a map).  You now need to hold it until you can install a friendly government…and remember you brought up total war.  So the US and most of NATO would now need conscription to sustain a force that large…you feeling strong?

- “But we will stop at the border”, sure and Russia will now simply reload and incite as much violence and discontent in Ukraine…now filled with US troops.  What possible negotiated end-state is there where Russia can still function while massing for WW3? No, you cannot give Russia time to reload…that would be really dumb.  So now you would need to contain Russia…in the 21st century…with China on one of its borders…and Iran.  That is a massive problem.  The state sponsored terrorism issues alone will be intense.  Again, this is limited measures that won’t “end” anything but risk a lot worse.

- Back to occupation, the risk of a resistance from hell is incredibly high.  See the many lengthy posts on that issue.  Very angry and well supported by various powers an occupied Russia could make Iraq look like a weekend outing.  Oh wait, there is more,

- Russia might fly apart while you are trying to occupy it.  Not known for its shining unity, occupation could see Russia itself fly apart and the the US is trying to manage a civil war…and a possible insurgency.

- Ok, now the obvious one…WMDs.  Let’s pretend that Russia won’t use them on good old “Merican” boys as they counter attack into Ukraine and encroach on the Russian border.  They sure as hell will if the US invades Russian soil, which we have to now.  And even if they don’t there is no way in this universe we can guarantee we can secure them all.  Now we may have lose WMDs of many flavours lose in this mess.

To put it more simply and in words with as few syllables as I can: To defeat  Russia and end this war in 4 weeks the US would need to break Russia.  To break Russia is to engage in a major war, possibly global.  It would break the UN, it would shatter NATO because I can think of at least a dozen nations that would get off that train quickly.  Economically it would break the system as we are talking markets staring down the barrel of nuclear Armageddon.  Anything short of that is just more limited war with even slimmer margins than we are already on.

So when you declare that “the US could end this thing in 4 weeks” all you are doing is loudly announcing just how much you do not understand.  If you honestly want to learn, maybe stop typing and start reading more. 

 

As if what you said wasn't enough to refute the "the US could unilaterally win this war in a couple of hours" argument, there's yet another one.

Guess what China is going to do when the US is fully invested and struggling to get out of a mess that makes Afghanistan and Iraq look like Haiti and Somalia in comparison?  Sit around doing nothing?  No, it will move quickly and decisively in a number of ways that would be difficult for the US to counter without risking a 2 front war.  The irony is that one line of argument in favor of knocking Russia out fast is so the US can concentrate on China.  Basically, a redo of the von Schlieffen Plan.  It didn't work out well for Germany, it won't work out well for the US, which then means having a mess in Russia and China getting to do (almost) whatever it wants.  The exact opposite of what is proposed, hence the irony.

As I keep saying... the smart, if not only, way to defeat Russia is to help Ukraine kill enough Russians and smash enough of its hard spent Rubles so that Russia collapses.  It's long, it's messy, but there's no other way.  And even then, it might only buy Ukraine a temporary reprieve.  Because the only way Ukraine can truly be safe from Russia long term is if Russia decides not to be a threat to it.  There's a long and hard road to go before we get to that possibility.

Steve

[kevinkin]

2 hours ago, The_Capt said:

few syllables

Something you don't get. Just be quiet OK. It takes you paragraphs to make a single point and we all struggle to understand the point you are making. If you don't like my position say "I don't like your position" without all the drama of a 13 year old on her first date. 

Edited September 11, 2023 by kevinkin

[Battlefront.com]

1 hour ago, dan/california said:

This is the only sentence in the entire post I disagree with. Virtually no one except Putin had anything to gain, a great many people had a very great deal to lose.

That's not correct.  Russian people are very concerned about being irrelevant and losing their empire status.  Putin has derived much of his power from convincing people this is the correct way to think and that he alone is the man to do the job.  Which is why we've had so many discussions about the Russian people not having any fundamental objections to what is going on in Ukraine.  Ambivalence counts as support in a situation like this.

So what do (present tense deliberate) Russians have to gain from this war?  Perceived greatness.  It doesn't matter this war is doing exactly the opposite, there doesn't seem to be much interest in reality amongst the Russian population as a whole.  Fatalism, fear of speaking up, etc. are all factors as well, but there's something deeper than that which Putin is satisfying and that is why Putin is doing it.

As I've said since the beginning of this war (and before), Putin launched this war for a variety of reasons.  Some of them were to maintain power, which in turn required giving the people something they want.  He could have given them any number of things, but he chose this war.  And judging by the reaction to it, it wasn't the wrong choice.

Steve

[kevinkin]

2 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

OK, time for the moderator in me to speak up.

This non-factual and counter factual emotional crusade you've been waging for the past few months that because this war is so awful there was a way to avoid it is beyond tiresome and a distraction.

Nothing I have posted remoting falls into that spectrum. It's opinion based on interpretation of information available. I believe my interpretation is grounded on the available information and not based on cheerleaders who never had a bullet fire at them in war. 

[Battlefront.com]

1 minute ago, kevinkin said:

Nothing I have posted remoting falls into that spectrum. It's opinion based on interpretation of information available. I believe my interpretation is grounded on the available information and not based on cheerleaders who never had a bullet fire at them in war. 

  You claim you come here to learn, but in reality you come here to preach and demean everybody that disagrees with your sermon.  Your positions are repeatedly challenged, including by people who have been in uniform and who have been deployed to combat zones.  Not that this is a requirement to know what one is talking about when it comes to war, because it certainly isn't.  Rather the opposite, as people in foxholes tend not to understand the geopolitics that got them into that place to begin with.

It is also a fact that your sermons are derailing this thread, repeatedly, and causing people to hit the Ban Button like nobody else I know of.  You can spin this as we all want to be rid of your wisdom and wallow in our ignorance, but have at it.

Remember, you do not get to set the rules here.  I do.  However, I am giving you a choice.  You have the option to retain your posting privileges by either refraining from being an aggressive evangelist for something nobody here seems to believe in or you can just not posting to this thread entirely. Choosing any other option, such as personally attacking me like you did the last time you were warned, will result in your permanent banishment from this Forum.

That's it.  My patience is at an end.

Steve

[kevinkin]

4 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

That's it.  My patience is at an end.

Steve

Ok. I will take a self imposed vacation and when I come back and proven correct it will not be rewarding for me, or you, or Ukraine. I am not aggressive nor a evangelist. People just don't like my views because this is a community of narrow minded thinkers. I would not want to be in a fox hole with them.  

[Battlefront.com]

2 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

Ok. I will take a self imposed vacation and when I come back and proven correct it will not be rewarding for me, or you, or Ukraine. I am not aggressive nor a evangelist. People just don't like my views because this is a community of narrow minded thinkers. I would not want to be in a fox hole with them.  

Acknowledged.  As is your continued display of contempt for those who disagree with you.  Since we are all beyond hope, your time is definitely better spent doing something more productive anyway.

Steve

[Kinophile]

Praise be. 

 

Edited September 11, 2023 by Kinophile

[kevinkin]

2 minutes ago, Battlefront.com said:

display of contempt

Before I go, I never held contempt for anyone or their positions. If so, prove it to the community. Give us all a break. I think you are becoming very nervous since everything you hold dear for whatever reason is falling apart and you and others are taking it out on me. None can't refute my positions. None. I would welcome a Ukrainian breakthrough, but this war is same old same old. There is difference between cheerleaders and leaders: take a second and think about that is the context of geostrategy.  

 

[Kinophile]

41 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

Ok. I will take a self imposed vacation and when I come back and proven correct it will not be rewarding for me, or you, or Ukraine. 

 

I wonder what this is and how effective it is in the long term:

https://www.rferl.org/a/iran-russia-missiles-foiled-israel/32586533.html

[kevinkin]

1 minute ago, Kinophile said:

wonder what this is and how effective it is in the long term:

Very Funny. However I am not a kiss *** if you know what that means. 

[chuckdyke]

Who can do this? 

[Ultradave]

11 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Enough - ever seen the stats on Ukrainian losses?  American power should transcend administrations and name blaming. That is just dividing and counter productive. I was not saying Biden screwed up. I was trying to say American has lost it's strategic vision. We are being out maneuvered in the southern hemisphere. Russia and China might be using cannon fodder in Ukraine to keep the west distracted. Horrible. The US should know better.  

To recover that "vision" and put it into effective action of some kind, the US Congress needs to take a deep breath and decide to work toward some common goals and agreements. They exist, and the Senate is better in this regard than the House. Anything substantive takes both houses, though. I'd say "the US" DOES know better but the current atmosphere is so partisan that bipartisan agreements just aren't happening, even though both parties essentially agree on something (and not just Ukraine, other topics as well). 

Dave

[Tux]

Ok, well I don't want to act unfairly in responding to a person who is deciding not to post any more on the thread so I will offer to continue this discussion with kevinkin in DMs, if he's interested.  However I did want to address some recent posts here because I think it speaks to a wider misunderstanding that is distressingly common when discussing complicated issues and has led to similar conflicts on this thread in the past.

Kevin, if you're still reading this (and as I say, you may respond to me in DM if you like - I don't want to provoke you into a further argument in this thread), it's not the positions you hold but your unwillingness to properly explore them which frustrates.  This leads to you gish-galloping your way through three or four 'positions' in each post.  Then, when someone tries to pin down and engage with a single one (like I and others did with 'stare down Putin' and The_Capt did with 'win the war in 4 weeks') we don't get much in response.  I tried to encourage you to expand on the 'staring' position, to see if there was anything to actually discuss there (I do believe that you believe you are raising fair points) but your response to a list of things the US did with the intelligence they had was to ask what the US did with the intelligence they had.  I mean, at my most charitable I could assume that it was a rhetorical question but without any elaboration from you about why the previous answers to such a "rhetorical" question might not count...  Mate, do you not see how that might quickly become frustrating?

The below quote is demonstrative of another problem:

4 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Something you don't get. Just be quiet OK. It takes you paragraphs to make a single point and we all struggle to understand the point you are making. If you don't like my position say "I don't like your position" without all the drama of a 13 year old on her first date. 

People should be aware that "single points" don't exist in the real world.  If one is trying to drill down to the truth of a matter then dragging multiple different topics together is unavoidable and necessary because ultimately everything is interacting, everywhere, all the time.  The_Capt, in a very particular sense, did write "paragraphs to make a single point" but that was precisely because addressing a single point requires exploration of many others.  That was his point!  In another, slightly less confusing sense, The_Capt's point intent was to just hint at the actual time, effort and patience which would be required to actually start answering one of kevinkin's one-liner questions by pointing out all the other questions which would have to be asked and answered at the same time.

My friendly advice to kevinkin or anyone else who is considering "just asking questions" or raising "points" which go against the "group-think" on this board:

1. Ask yourself the question
2. Decide what you think the answer might be
3. Think of and ask yourself at least 3 different questions directly related to the answer to your initial question
4. Decide what you think the answers might be to each of those 3
5. Consider the implications of the combined 4 answers you are now holding in your mind
6. Ask yourself whether they make sense together, as the beginnings of a coherent potential "truth"
   1. If they do make sense together and they contrast with what you perceive as the dominant viewpoint on this thread or elsewhere then you may have an interesting point.  Go ahead and make it, simultaneously making your case by including your thinking about the 3 other 'satellite' questions.  This demonstrates the way you are thinking.  It is helpful, interesting and it will be appreciated by those who are minded to respond.
   2. If they don't make sense together, try again*.  If you are still unable to find a sensible "truth" which explains them all, that's great because you may have an interesting question.  Go ahead and ask it, simultaneously including your thinking about the 3 other 'satellite' questions and what you are finding difficult to understand.  This demonstrates the way you are thinking.  It is helpful, interesting and it will be appreciated by those who are minded to respond.
7. Listen to/read the response(s) you get, think about them and engage with the precise thoughts that people raise, doing your best to help people relate the discussion back to your original question.

Sound too much like hard work?  Welcome to a discussion about a very complicated issue.  People spend lifetimes studying, thinking about and writing about this stuff and it's not because they are overly verbose or for want of anything better to do.

 

*In particular it may be helpful to think about answers which do not involve the USA.  Only a very small minority of real-world global decisions are made with the USA in mind, so you'd be surprised how often this might help.

[billbindc]

12 hours ago, NamEndedAllen said:

Too many tokes over the so-called “thought experiments” line. 
Never used the blocked button before, but life is far too precious to waste. With regrets, as something must be going wrong.

Joining you on this. It's like arguing with a bot.

[The_Capt]

5 hours ago, kevinkin said:

Nothing I have posted remoting falls into that spectrum. It's opinion based on interpretation of information available. I believe my interpretation is grounded on the available information and not based on cheerleaders who never had a bullet fire at them in war. 

I am a veteran of two wars and have likely forgotten more about war and warfare than you based on your contributions to this thread.  

I see that you are taking a “self-imposed” vacation and will come back “when proven right”.  Well problem with that is that you have never really taken a clear position on anything.  At one moment you talk about “diplomacy and negotiation” the next “4 weeks to victory”.  You have not demonstrated any real research or citations in your contributions nor any level of recognizable expertise on the subject matter.  My, and other attempts, to explain are “too complicated” so you dismiss them.  Then when I sit down and actually try to unpack your position and why your assumptions are flawed, I get insults and name calling.  No facts.  No counter analysis.  Just “be quiet”.

So when you come back (and I am sure you will), what exactly constitutes you “being proven right”?  Have the courage to take a position and clearly define it and stop these politically motivated drive-bys.  The way you have ambiguously framed your position does not allow for you to be wrong.  If the war is still going on you can declare “I told you we should have negotiated/stated/invaded”.  If the war ends, you can claim it is because the US finally did whatever you were saying all along.

So I am calling you out.  Clearly give us three strategic “must dos” in order for this war to end.  Clear and measurable strategic actions the US and West must carry out in your deeply informed opinion.  Don’t weasel around it or try to build in wiggle room.  Here let me show you how it is done:

1.  Commitment to win the war. The US/West must continue to own the escalation ladder in this war.  They must continue steady, predictable and clear pressure on Russia through programmed support to Ukraine.  This commitment must be unambiguous and apolitical, we are in it until this is done.  No back doors or side deals.  No renormalization until Russia is out of Ukraine completely.  This is a slow steady path with no sudden movement as we thread a needle between uncontrolled escalation and stagnation/freezing conflict.  This is a long war of attrition and must be navigated as one…it will go slow until the RA collapses militarily or there is a major political shift in Russia.  Either way direct confrontation between US/West must be avoided at all costs - no hard fast win.  Further, victory must be clear and unambiguous as well.  No soft-wins for Russia just to end this. Russian defeat must be clear.

2.  Commitment to win post-war.  Reconstruction and post conflict defence and security mechanisms are a must.  No grey areas or open clauses.  We commit to rebuild Ukraine and pull it into a real security alliance that will guarantee long term security and investment.

3.  Engineer Russian negotiations with its own defeat.  Russia cannot become a failed state, yet it requires regime change.  That is very tricky to manage at the best of times.  A path to renormalization must be developed but it cannot ignore the egregious warcrimes and violations Russia has committed.  This will lead Russia out of being pulled entirely into a Chinese power sphere and provide some multipolar power manoeuvre room.

There you go.  I am on record with my position and advice.  Now if the US goes in hard next week and Russia withdraws with its tail between its legs I will be proven wrong.  If we can suddenly negotiate an end to this war that makes everyone happy, I was also wrong.  So what have you got?

[kevinkin]

44 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

So I am calling you out.  Clearly give us three strategic “must dos” in order for this war to end.  Clear and measurable strategic actions the US and West must carry out in your deeply informed opinion.  Don’t weasel around it or try to build in wiggle room.  Here let me show you how it is done:

Why three and not one or ten? This is not a an high school or college level test you know. Where is the blue book for heaven's sake. So here is a start: take your three statements print them out, go let some young warriors read and laugh at them while we empower the warrior to win the war in several weeks. It's not as complicated as you write about. Firepower has a language all its own. And is not verbose. People have always attacked me first and I just come back with a short retort that frustrates them. I do so with precision not multi worded cluster bombs.  

Edited September 11, 2023 by kevinkin

[kevinkin]

27 minutes ago, Tux said:

• Ask yourself the question
• Decide what you think the answer might be
• Think of and ask yourself at least 3 different questions directly related to the answer to your initial question
• Decide what you think the answers might be to each of those 3
• Consider the implications of the combined 4 answers you are now holding in your mind
• Ask yourself whether they make sense together, as the beginnings of a coherent potential "truth"
  1. If they do make sense together and they contrast with what you perceive as the dominant viewpoint on this thread or elsewhere then you may have an interesting point.  Go ahead and make it, simultaneously making your case by including your thinking about the 3 other 'satellite' questions.  This demonstrates the way you are thinking.  It is helpful, interesting and it will be appreciated by those who are minded to respond.
  2. If they don't make sense together, try again*.  If you are still unable to find a sensible "truth" which explains them all, that's great because you may have an interesting question.  Go ahead and ask it, simultaneously including your thinking about the 3 other 'satellite' questions and what you are finding difficult to understand.  This demonstrates the way you are thinking.  It is helpful, interesting and it will be appreciated by those who are minded to respond.
• Listen to/read the response(s) you get, think about them and engage with the precise thoughts that people raise, doing your best to help people relate the discussion back to your original question.

Are you serious?

[Beleg85]

Battle area Verbove , Ukrainians in the captured Russian fortifications. You can also see a destroyed Ukrainian Spartan armored personnel carrier of British production.

Very interesting talks last days, a pitty no time reading them all now.

Just to add a little- I wouldn't marginalize pictures of January 6th riots and their influence on Putin's mind. Yes, war was coming upon Ukraine this way of another, but final spark (and subsequent scope of conflict) that ignited brilliant idea that  "Western-dominated world order is now really finished" came probably from these. Such photos/movies can have disproportionately higher influence in system's like Putin's, that dwell more on visual codes of power rather than working citizen institutions.

It is actually visible in Kremlin's language, which seems to be genuinly believing nowadays that they are at the forefront of positive changes in the world. Old Soviet narrations about Africa, India, China and South America are now being proudly brandished like rusty armours taken from grandfather's cellar. It is process that seems qualitively different from previous dirty Russian geopolitical business in Africa and Middle East, at least on ideological level.

[kevinkin]

See ya. I will buy everyone a beer when Ukraine wins. 

[The_Capt]

6 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

Why three and not one or ten? This is not a an high school or college level test you know. Where is the blue book for heaven's sake. So here is a start: take your three statements print them out, go let some young warriors read and laugh at them while we empower the warrior to win the war in several weeks. It's not as complicated as you write about. Firepower has a language all its own. 

So this is what you got?  I teach “young warriors” and have led dozens in combat while you likely sat at home and yelled at the tv - you are no vet I can tell that from your first post.

Let’s stop the BS and call this what it really is - political platforming.  Your position is not all that difficult to read, pretty transparent.  Basically everything the current US presidential administration is doing is “wrong”.  “Right” is whatever “our guy would do as opposite”.  So President Biden is pursuing a deliberate incremental strategy to compress Russia, so your position is “more firepower” and “hard staring”.  Or you jump on the “this war is stupid, we must negotiate”.  Basically anything President Biden is doing is “wrong” and anything they are not doing is “right”.  That has been the sum total of your contributions to this entire discussing since you showed up (oh, and some bizarre social commentary on women and social justice for good measure).  That is it.  One long “very stable strategic genius” diatribe anchored on a single viewpoint.  If President Biden declared the US was going to “end this thing in 4 weeks” you would be here yelling that “this was the dumbest thing ever” and probably quote my points as why.

You know it is ok.  You are just another in a very long line of segments of the population that surrender their own agency in the face of uncertainty.  We invented the Church which has lasted over 2000 years on exactly that principle.  Agency and independent thought is to embrace uncertainty and most people really don’t want to do this, it is scary.

Problem is you wandered onto the wrong forum.  This place has been home to a lot of independent thought since before this war started. We have pursued the facts as we can find them and then conduct collective analysis and synthesis to try and establish a clear picture of what is happening.  No one here has surrendered independent thought to a political position.  We all have opinions, I for one think President Biden’s administration has done very well in managing this crisis.  Not perfect but considering we are well off the strategic map here, they have done as well as reasonably possible.  

I am not an American, I do not participate in your political process so I do not share your baggage.  I cannot fix you or even try to change your mind, you clearly have it all figured out.  But you are not going to find friends here. Your missionary work on this forum is a waste of time.  

But it is ok.  With this last, I promote you to Hot Thread “crazy guy”.  It is a honorary position that has been vacant since John Kettler left us (rest in peace John).  You can go on and on but we all know it is for entertainment purposes only.  I am even going to un-ignore you because I am going to be first to rub your unruly mop of hair and just smile at your incorrigible rapscallion ways.  Your are a stump thumping looney kevinkin, but you are our looney.  Try not to get banned because then we will have to find another.

 

[The_Capt]

20 minutes ago, kevinkin said:

See ya. I will buy everyone a beer when Ukraine wins. 

See what I mean…adorable.