Soviet Basic Load for MR Troops with AK-47s?

[John Kettler]

If Zaloga is to be believed in his intel driven novel Red Thrust, the basic load for the guys in the BMPs is meager, a mere 30 rounds in the AK-47's magazine and two more magazines carried by the soldier, 90 rounds total. In the book, he shows that this directly affects combat staying power, because the BMP guys occupy some houses, but can't hold them because they quickly run out of ammo. My recollection is that in Vietnam, the US troops carried 300-400 rounds per man for their M16s. How do things stack up on this Soviet vs US score in CMCW?

Regards,

John Kettler

Edited December 30, 2021 by John Kettler

[Halmbarte]

Translated Sov AK manual says each rifle is issued with 6 magazines. Link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B09fZpC9S7gDMmYyMGI2Y2MtMzQ3MC00MDU3LTk0Y2ItYjBlZTNiNDc5NWE0/view?usp=sharing&resourcekey=0-aA95cgoT5SK0Cvqs44GOhQ

Snip below is from page 55. 

H

[domfluff]

10 hours ago, John Kettler said:

If Zaloga is to be believed in his intel driven novel Red Thrust, the basic load for the guys in the BMPs is meager, a mere 30 rounds in the AK-47's magazine and two more magazines carried by the soldier, 90 rounds total. In the book, he shows that this directly affects combat staying power, because the BMP guys occupy some houses, but can't hold them because they quickly run out of ammo. My recollection is that in Vietnam, the US troops carried 300-400 rounds per man for their M16s. How do things stack up on this Soviet vs US score in CMCW?

Regards,

John Kettler

In Cold War, each Soviet rifleman (on typical settings) will have 240 rounds, split into eight magazines.

In reality, my understanding was it was typical for Soviet infantry to carry four actual magazines with a total of 120 rounds, and have the remaining 120 rounds loose in their pack. CMCW just gives them eight magazines, which is a sensible abstraction.

The US rifleman of the period has seven 30 round magazines, for a total of 210.


The BMP carries enough rounds to double each man's load (I don't have the figures for the US M113, but it'll be similar)


Given the rates of fire, a Soviet soldier in CMCW could theoretically dump their entire ammo load in 22 seconds minimum (ignoring reloading time), whereas the US could dump theirs in 13-15 seconds, since they carry less ammo, and have a higher rate of fire.

[DMS]

Load was 4 magazines + some ammo in clips. 

[MikeyD]

An often cited (and often criticized) post-WWII report said fear of running out of ammo was the principle reason why US soldiers would refuse to fire their weapon in combat.The Army had a perpetual fear of depleted ammo. Its interesting that when the US army moved from M16 to M4 carbine they did away will the full auto feature (later to return on M4A1). Managing ammo expenditure is a significant aspect of CM gameplay. You learn that quickly when commanding Russian SMG troops in CMRT. They're run themselves entirely out of ammo in the blink of an eye. You learn to treat your smg squads as single-engagement forces because they can't do more.

Edited December 30, 2021 by MikeyD

[Erwin]

33 minutes ago, MikeyD said:

You learn to treat your smg squads as single-engagement forces because they can't do more.

A tactic used since CM1 days is to always split the SMG squads and only use one team for combat, using the other team only for "resupply" when the whole squad is recombined again (assuming no resupply from a vehicle).  There is usually enough firepower from one team to do the job.

[DMS]

IRL Soviet SMG gunners sometimes had 1-2 magazines, so in the game they are well equipped. In the Red army units were supplied from company and platoon ammo loads by foot carriers, soldiers carried small amount of ammunition. Later that ammo loads were replaced by APC. Mobility first.

[Halmbarte]

One thing that I have learned is that Sov pattern troops will burn through their basic load fast when doing suppressive fire. I run them back to the BTR/BMPs to get more ammo during lulls in the actually shooting. 

H

[Splinty]

Although the basic rifleman's load of 210 is correct for US Army on paper, the reality is we would carry as much as we could based on what was available. My personal load in Iraq in 2006 was around 500 rounds of 5.56 mostly in magazines, but I usually carried of couple of boxes of loose rounds in a side pouch. The troops I served with did the same based on their primary weapon. It was the same with blanks and other training ammo in the 80's when I served in Germany.

[Erwin]

33 minutes ago, Splinty said:

My personal load in Iraq in 2006 was around 500 rounds of 5.56 mostly in magazines,

That's good to know as one wants to start with a "realistic" load (and not have everyone carrying thousands of rounds (plus AT) as CM lets the troops do with minimal movement penalty).  

Were the "loose rounds in a side pouch" part of the 500 or in addition?

[chuckdyke]

Australian army 'officially' issued five twenty round magazine for the infantryman's SLR.

Allied Weaponry | Vietnam Veterans Association of Australia (vvaavic.org.au)

Edited December 31, 2021 by chuckdyke

[Splinty]

4 hours ago, Erwin said:

That's good to know as one wants to start with a "realistic" load (and not have everyone carrying thousands of rounds (plus AT) as CM lets the troops do with minimal movement penalty).  

Were the "loose rounds in a side pouch" part of the 500 or in addition?

Part of. At some point practicality overcomes quantity. 

 

[John Kettler]

15 hours ago, MikeyD said:

An often cited (and often criticized) post-WWII report said fear of running out of ammo was the principle reason why US soldiers would refuse to fire their weapon in combat.The Army had a perpetual fear of depleted ammo. Its interesting that when the US army moved from M16 to M4 carbine they did away will the full auto feature (later to return on M4A1). Managing ammo expenditure is a significant aspect of CM gameplay. You learn that quickly when commanding Russian SMG troops in CMRT. They're run themselves entirely out of ammo in the blink of an eye. You learn to treat your smg squads as single-engagement forces because they can't do more.

Running out of ammo is definitely a thing, sometimes at high levels if the troops are profligate on their ammo expenditures. During Barbarossa, Grossdeutschland shot off all its om Day One, ISTR, only to be served a brutal lesson by Army Group Commander Kleist. He let the division (?) spend the entire night without ammo, afer which Grossdeutschland became the very model of judicious ammo expenditures!

All,

Much appreciation for this most valuable feedback, especially from the veterans. Would love to hear from our resident Ukrainians and Russians on this matter. IN any event, it looks like Zaloga erred hugely.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

Have to say I do find it of interest that the Russian ammo load is slightly larger as to round count than the American one, despite AK-47 ammo being considerably heavier than US 5.56 mm. Would also like to know if a pretty common US practice was followed in this period: each man carrying one LMG belt and one 60 mm mortar round? 

Regards,

John Kettler

[domfluff]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:11 PM, John Kettler said:

Have to say I do find it of interest that the Russian ammo load is slightly larger as to round count than the American one, despite AK-47 ammo being considerably heavier than US 5.56 mm. Would also like to know if a pretty common US practice was followed in this period: each man carrying one LMG belt and one 60 mm mortar round? 

Regards,

John Kettler

The M60 isn't really an "LMG" in any definition of the term, and that really defined its use. It was judged that it was too much for one man to operate, and that it would ideally have a team of three.

The mechanised infantry had five to distribute over the platoon (CMCW has this as "heavy" squads with 2x M60, 1x Dragon, "medium" squads with 1x M60, 1x Dragon, and "light" squads with 1x M60 - on-paper would then be 2x Heavy, 1x Medium in CMCW terms).

The leg infantry didn't have a MG at the squad level. Instead the M60 was crewed in two teams of three (the MG squad), at the platoon level, to be attached or deployed where appropriate.

I don't have figures to hand for common ammo loadouts for the M60, but from memory each of those three men carried 1000 rounds or so, but that might be more for the two which weren't the gunner - I haven't checked in CMCW to see how that is modelled in-game. The US loadout of the period wouldn't be carrying mortar rounds or M60 belts above that, I suspect. The mech infantry only had them at the squad level because they had an M113 to carry the load for them.

Edited January 4, 2022 by domfluff

[domfluff]

Also, the heavier Soviet loadout doesn't really surprise me, since the infantry were supposed to remain mounted an awful lot more than the US were.

NBC concerns were part of that, but one thing that CMCW shows above all is that on a tactical level, the Soviets can't afford to spend too long in any location. Dismounting to clear out a village is an action that will be met with DPICM (or whatever) within minutes. Much better to bypass, keep moving, and win the field. 

[Halmbarte]

9 hours ago, domfluff said:

The M60 isn't really an "LMG" in any definition of the term, and that really defined its use. It was judged that it was too much for one man to operate, and that it would ideally have a team of three.

The mechanised infantry had five to distribute over the platoon (CMCW has this as "heavy" squads with 2x M60, 1x Dragon, "medium" squads with 1x M60, 1x Dragon, and "light" squads with 1x M60 - on-paper would then be 2x Heavy, 1x Medium in CMCW terms).

The leg infantry didn't have a MG at the squad level. Instead the M60 was crewed in two teams of three (the MG squad), at the platoon level, to be attached or deployed where appropriate.

I don't have figures to hand for common ammo loadouts for the M60, but from memory each of those three men carried 1000 rounds or so, but that might be more for the two which weren't the gunner - I haven't checked in CMCW to see how that is modelled in-game. The US loadout of the period wouldn't be carrying mortar rounds or M60 belts above that, I suspect. The mech infantry only had them at the squad level because they had an M113 to carry the load for them.

The M60 was intended to replace the BAR in the LMG role w/o a tripod and to replace the M1917 in the heavy MG role with a tripod. That the M60 wasn’t a great GPMG shouldn’t be too controversial a statement but it was intended to be used as a LMG. 

H

[Halmbarte]

On 12/31/2021 at 1:11 PM, John Kettler said:

Have to say I do find it of interest that the Russian ammo load is slightly larger as to round count than the American one, despite AK-47 ammo being considerably heavier than US 5.56 mm. Would also like to know if a pretty common US practice was followed in this period: each man carrying one LMG belt and one 60 mm mortar round? 

Regards,

John Kettler

 The 1st rate Sov troops in game are armed with 5.45x39 weapons, including their RPKs, which makes their small arms ammo weight similar to if not less than the Americans, who are hauling around 7.62 NATO belts for the M60s. 
H

[domfluff]

It was intended to be used as an LMG - indeed, the original idea was that you'd have one per fireteam, but the Rifle Squad and Platoon Evaluation Program in 1961 came to the conclusion that this was not a viable technique, and that they were best kept to three man, dedicated teams. This is the structure that you see in the non-mechanised infantry in CMCW, so that's the one which is relevant here.

[arkhangelsk2021]

I suppose it'll depend on the situation. In Afghanistan, the soldier's load was:

Quote

The combat rifleman carried eight loaded assault rifle magazines and up to 1,000 rounds of ammunition, four hand grenades (two F-l, two RG-5), four signal rockets, two days of dry rations, two canteens full of water (2.5 liters), an individual first aid kit, 20 tablets of pantacide for treating water, a great coat or short jacket, and a small spade. The overall weight of this kit approached 32 to 33 kilograms [70.5 to 72.75 pounds].

From P.284, the Soviet-Afghan War, How a Superpower Fought and Lost

Of course, it's possible if they intend to only make the relatively short rush (a few hundred meters) as advocated by Soviet doctrine, they might carry less.