Cancel ongoing artillery mission when the FO i KO

[Fizou]

In an ongoing pbem I have a long artillery mission (22 minutes left at full ROF) where the FO has been KIA. So there is no way for me to cancel or alter this mission. Could this be something to change for the next engine update or in a bigger patch? Surely there would be a way for a CO to override an ongoing mission? 

Now this is something that will rarely happen, and knowing of the possibility one can be careful with missions using the full complement of shells. But if its not to complex to add I think it would be a nice addition.   

[Redwolf]

What happens when you select "go to spotter" from a different HQ unit's artillery dialog?

[Erwin]

It can take many minutes for the FO's death to register with the arty CO.  Eventually, it should return for use by other spotters (assuming all the ammo hasn't been expended).  

Yes, it can be frustrating as one would think that losing contact with an FO would raise alarms a bit quicker.  But, have no idea how quickly that happens in RL.

[Ultradave]

Usually there would be no radio contact back and forth during the FFE phase. So no one may know for a while that the FO is dead. The infantry CO who the FO is with could make a call if he wanted the mission canceled, but it could take a few minutes to verify that it's a valid call.

It's the firing battery that decides the number of rounds to fire, not the FO. The FO describes the target. Firing battery determines rounds to FFE based on target description, standard response, and their ammo situation. So likely you're going to get those 22 minutes of rounds no matter what, unless the FO called for a check fire. If he doesn't, the battery is going to fire what they planned. 

Dave

[Erwin]

"It's the firing battery that decides the number of rounds to fire, not the FO."

Thanks for the clarification Ultradave.  Useful to know.

Edited December 11, 2021 by Erwin

[DougPhresh]

18 hours ago, Ultradave said:

Usually there would be no radio contact back and forth during the FFE phase. So no one may know for a while that the FO is dead. The infantry CO who the FO is with could make a call if he wanted the mission canceled, but it could take a few minutes to verify that it's a valid call.

It's the firing battery that decides the number of rounds to fire, not the FO. The FO describes the target. Firing battery determines rounds to FFE based on target description, standard response, and their ammo situation. So likely you're going to get those 22 minutes of rounds no matter what, unless the FO called for a check fire. If he doesn't, the battery is going to fire what they planned. 

Dave

I came here to post this. I was Arty Signals both in FOO and STA. There would be absolutely no way to know if anything had happened to the FOO as Artillery Communications (Fire Discipline) follows a procedure, a script. The procedure is designed, as @Ultradave said, so that data is fed to the CP, developed into firing data and given to the guns. Without "Check Fire", that procedure is not getting interrupted. 

Add to that that in WW2, and often times even today, other arms aren't on the Artillery net. There's no link between say an infantry company and the firing battery, and you're looking at no way to Check fire without the information getting passed up, over and then back down. When we're talking about a time when radios could be few and far between, and relying on telephone links, there's no way to quickly change missions like that.

This, of course, is why pre-planned fires were (and are) central to the Commonwealth way of war. The infantry is briefed on the fireplan, and guns assigned to it have a card that tells the 1IC (gun commander) the data for every single round his gun will fire - sometimes for the next few hours. This means that whatever happens on the sharp end, rounds still fall where they are supposed to reliably. It's not as fluid or dynamic as on-call fires, but it works. There's a nifty explanation putting it into gameplay terms Here. A Fantastic Website Here, and the two books we use to teach at CTC Artillery School Here and Here if you want to go deep. 

 

I'm not saying all fire planning all the time, but for players commanding Commonwealth troops in BN and FI, and Brits and Canadians in SF2, this is the real solution to delivering reliable fires regardless of contact with the observer. As a rule: Medium guns fire pre-planned, some Field guns do, but some are kept available on-call, and mortars of course, are the Infantry's Artillery, are are most flexible to employ. 

 

I hope I didn't get too bogged down with detail there, but I really enjoy discussing the tools of the trade. 

[Erwin]

What happens during the spotting round process?  If the arty CO doesn't get the adjust fire instructions wouldn't he just stop as he could be firing on friendlies.

[DougPhresh]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

What happens during the spotting round process?  If the arty CO doesn't get the adjust fire instructions wouldn't he just stop as he could be firing on friendlies.

A call for fire is a request unless it's pre-planned.  The CP won't fire until the FOO completes the warning order. The warning order is the type of mission, size of firing element (troop, battery, X guns), method of target location. If that's not done, there's no mission to process, and no fires.

Remember this data has to be processed at the CP and applied at the guns. If someone drops off the net while adjusting, there's no way to know what adjustments to make, so the mission can't proceed, certainly not to FFE. A "Repeat" call would be the exception, but that just means to repeat the last order, in this case the last adjusting round.

(This is why we tell infantry and cavalry not to say "could you repeat yourself?" or even say the word "Repeat" on our net. It's why Fire D has that formal script.)

If the CP can't raise the FOO, they'd try again before ending the mission. 

The American Pam is here, I can't post the Canadian ones, but if you find one that's publicly available, most NATO stuff is nearly identical. Main difference is terminology ie CP vs FDE. 

tl;dr - If you half-ordered a meal, the kitchen wouldn't send it out, would they? 

[Ultradave]

I can at least speak to the Canadian Cold War era procedures. I've mentioned before but since we're discussing, I did an exchange program with the Cdn Parachute Regt. Their procedures were VERY similar to ours, and so I assumed (obviously correctly) the British are also very similar since the Canadians were very British Army oriented. 

My background - FIST Chief A/1-320FA(Abn), with C Co, 1-325 Inf(Abn), Fire Direction Officer B/2-321FA(Abn), Fire Support Officer, 3d Brigade, 82d Airborne Division, and Assistant S-3 and Battalion Fire Direction Officer, 2-321FA(Abn).

I think when I was editing that previous post, I left out the part where for the Infantry CO or Plt Ldr to call the artillery, they would pretty much have to grab the dead FOs radio and call the battery using his own callsign, not knowing the battery callsign. The battery would force him to authenticate, which his own RTO would be able to do. All this is going to take some time, ASSUMING the FOs radio even works after he is killed. Somehow in reformatting I ended up deleting that part.

As @DougPhresh says, anything else requires the radio request to go up-over-down to get to the battery Fire Direction Center.

Dave 

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, DougPhresh said:

If someone drops off the net while adjusting, there's no way to know what adjustments to make, so the mission can't proceed, certainly not to FFE.

This is the point being discussed.  In the game, when the FO is KIA, the FFE may still go ahead, or at least many spotting rounds over many minutes are wasted until the game system finally "releases" the arty asset for another spotter.  An important issue that hopefully will be addressed in CM3 or another update.

[chuckdyke]

A unit which is qualified to call in artillery should also have the ability to contact the artillery to cancel a futile mission. 

[Erwin]

6 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

A unit which is qualified to call in artillery should also have the ability to contact the artillery to cancel a futile mission. 

However, in the game, if the FO is KIA, the mission cannot be cancelled.  One has to wait quite a long time in game terms for the arty to again be available.  That is what the original poster was commenting on.

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, Erwin said:

One has to wait quite a long time in game terms for the arty to again be available. 

As Soviet this is unrealistic the FO can be next to his regimental HQ and the regimental HQ still can't cancel a futile mission. A flare should be sufficient I accept the HQ is not qualified to or has the skills to call new coordinates but it certainty can communicate stop. 

[LukeFF]

22 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

A unit which is qualified to call in artillery should also have the ability to contact the artillery to cancel a futile mission. 

Did you read anything written above your post before you hit Send?

[chuckdyke]

On 12/12/2021 at 5:20 AM, Fizou said:

So there is no way for me to cancel or alter this mission. Could this be something to change for the next engine update or in a bigger patch?

@LukeFF I agreed with the original post. Sorry If you find an issue with that. We all like a more playable game which maintains it realism. A little like a person picking up my cell phone after a traffic accident. To inform my family. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

8 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

A little like a person picking up my cell phone after a traffic accident.

Do your family require a callsign and codes, so that you can identify yourself? 

[chuckdyke]

5 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Do your family require a callsign and codes, so that you can identify yourself?

There is a password if you border to put one in. But you can always make an emergency call. It depends where in your formation you put an FO and one would suppose there is a protocol for in case he becomes a casualty. We need some input from people who were an FO's. Back to IED's  How you trigger an IED? With a Cellphone? Lucky in my last scenario the triggerman's cellphone (I suppose that's how unconventionals set of their IED's) may have been password protected. The scenario was US Marines vs Unconventional Conscripts. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

If you want to be sure that IEDs will go off, stack two (or more) on top of each other and ensure that two (or more) Triggermen have LOS, it doesn't matter what kind of Triggerman BTW, any triggerman can set off any IED, regardless of source or 'trigger type'.

 

Edited December 13, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[chuckdyke]

4 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

If you want to be sure that IEDs will go off, stack two (or more)

I played US Marines against unconventional. It was an easy game the AI packed it in with 12 minutes to spare. It must be hard for an editor to set it up. Back to WW2 I think we have at the moment 37C + days or 100F so inside with the AC on full blast. Tomorrow carry on against a human player who comes around once a week. 

[DougPhresh]

Briefly: 

10 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

A unit which is qualified to call in artillery should also have the ability to contact the artillery to cancel a futile mission. 

Is answered by:

13 hours ago, Ultradave said:

I think when I was editing that previous post, I left out the part where for the Infantry CO or Plt Ldr to call the artillery, they would pretty much have to grab the dead FOs radio and call the battery using his own callsign, not knowing the battery callsign. The battery would force him to authenticate, which his own RTO would be able to do. All this is going to take some time, ASSUMING the FOs radio even works after he is killed. Somehow in reformatting I ended up deleting that part.

and

10 hours ago, Erwin said:

However, in the game, if the FO is KIA, the mission cannot be cancelled.  One has to wait quite a long time in game terms for the arty to again be available.  That is what the original poster was commenting on.

as well as 

49 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Do your family require a callsign and codes, so that you can identify yourself? 

 

I cannot stress that enough. In any situation where a FOO might be killed (ie contact with the enemy) obviously a main consideration would be that same radio falling into the enemy's hands! You can't just break into the Artillery Net and say "Uh this is Lt. Bob, the FOO's been killed, please cancel all artillery fire on our the enemy position. Danke, Spasibo, Thank you!"

There is a process for authenticating, but there is absolutely no, none, could never be "emergency calls". Why? Because some people (like say the Russian Federation) are very, very good at Electronic Warfare and could likely break into a NATO Artillery Net, even without capturing the physical radio. There's the callsign, authentication, and more complex steps than that I won't go into under some conditions, but the short hand is - Artillery Communication is it's own system. There are rules and procedures and a script.  There are some emergency procedures - Final Protective Fire etc - but there's no way to skip the steps that authenticate that the call is a legitimate one. 

 

The lesson is "Keep your FOOs alive!" 

and I don't only say that out of self-preservation 

Edited December 13, 2021 by DougPhresh

[chuckdyke]

16 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

The lesson is "Keep your FOOs alive!" 

Thank you for your detailed explanation. 

[Ultradave]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

We need some input from people who were an FO's.

That's what I've been doing, you realize?

There are authentication tables. Impossible to spoof unless the enemy has captured a copy of one somehow. Even then it would take work. It's a call and response but MUCH more secure than "today's challenge is 'bullfight' and the response is 'olé'  "

There *are* procedures for processing a call for fire from an untrained observer, HOWEVER, that assumes that the untrained observer can correctly contact the firing battery and can authenticate. THEN, he'll be talked through an adjust fire mission by the Fire Direction Center. We used to train on this by having infantry soldiers get on the radio and make a call for fire with no help from the FO, just in case.

Without a proper authentication, though, you're not getting any rounds.

And the "keep your FOs alive".   Also near to hand. When I was a FIST Chief, the infantry company commander told me that if he spun around quickly and didn't knock me over in the process, I was too far away. And taught his platoon leaders the same thing for their FOs assigned to them. Reach out and touch

Dave

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ultradave

[Sgt.Squarehead]

10 minutes ago, Ultradave said:

That's what I've been doing, you realize?

Sometimes it's like beating your head against a brick wall mate. 

Ask @Combatintman. 

[DougPhresh]

1 hour ago, Ultradave said:

That's what I've been doing, you realize?

Ditto. Surveillance and Target Acquisition and FOOs, plus time instructing. No jump wings, but nobody’s perfect. 
 

I’m by no means a Master Gunner, but I started by linking the relevant doctrine and manuals as well as a well-written website that translated the Commonwealth (and other nations’!) artillery procedure into gameplay!  
 

The Artillery Net is not just something you can hop on. There are callsigns and authorization, and as @Ultradave said, even if we teach other arms the basics, we still have to allow them on the net to process their requests. 
 

Particularly with cancelling a mission, you would need to authenticate yourself and then read back the mission to the CP. If it wasn’t your callsign that issued it, presumably because you weren’t on the artillery net, this is not going to be a quick process. 
 

Remember, our Command Post is connected to all of our assets - Recce and FOOs - as well as the Brigade net, Artillery Regiment net , who knows who else. I understand Americans don’t maintain Artillery staffs as large as ours so they may not also have such an intricate planning staff, but the gist of it is - artillery fire is not spontaneous but part of a larger plan. Yes, we’ll approve calls for fire - if we want to, if we’re able to, if we have time to.
 

That means you can’t call down fires that are busy or under someone else’s control - but you also cant just break into net and cancel someone else’s mission!   
 

Like I said, this may be a Commonwealth thing, because we’re in the business of planning and artillery, and there are of course exceptions to all this (which the CP, Bty Staff, Regt Staff and Artillery Staff attached to Bde will evaluate depending on what’s being asked), but “messing” with someone else’s mission and/or the existing plan is not something someone will let an Infantry Lt do without a second glance.
 

Edited December 13, 2021 by DougPhresh

[Ultradave]

47 minutes ago, DougPhresh said:

Ditto. Surveillance and Target Acquisition and FOOs, plus time instructing. No jump wings, but nobody’s perfect. 
 

I’m by no means a Master Gunner, but I started by linking the relevant doctrine and manuals as well as a well-written website that translated the Commonwealth (and other nations’!) artillery procedure into gameplay!  
 

The Artillery Net is not just something you can hop on. There are callsigns and authorization, and as @Ultradave said, even if we teach other arms the basics, we still have to allow them on the net to process their requests. 
 

Particularly with cancelling a mission, you would need to authenticate yourself and then read back the mission to the CP. If it wasn’t your callsign that issued it, presumably because you weren’t on the artillery net, this is not going to be a quick process. 
 

Remember, our Command Post is connected to all of our assets - Recce and FOOs - as well as the Brigade net, Artillery Regiment net , who knows who else. I understand Americans don’t maintain Artillery staffs as large as ours so they may not also have such an intricate planning staff, but the gist of it is - artillery fire is not spontaneous but part of a larger plan. Yes, we’ll approve calls for fire - if we want to, if we’re able to, if we have time to.
 

That means you can’t call down fires that are busy or under someone else’s control - but you also cant just break into net and cancel someone else’s mission!   
 

Like I said, this may be a Commonwealth thing, because we’re in the business of planning and artillery, and there are of course exceptions to all this (which the CP, Bty Staff, Regt Staff and Artillery Staff attached to Bde will evaluate depending on what’s being asked), but “messing” with someone else’s mission and/or the existing plan is not something someone will let an Infantry Lt do without a second glance.
 

Our US artillery is pretty well integrated with the maneuver staffs. At Company level there is a FIST Chief, 2LT, who has a E6 (Staff Sergeant) assistant, and and E3  (PFC) RTO, each infantry platoon has an E5(Sgt) FO, with an E3 RTO (although we never had enough RTOs to go around).  At infantry Battalion level there is a Fire Support Office, usually a 1LT, who has a E6 assistant, and an RTO. And then at Brigade level, there is a Brigade Fire Support Office (usually a CPT, occasionally a Major), who also has the usual E6/7 assistant and RTO.

The company level applies to Cold War era, as pushing the FOs down to platoon level started around that time with the introduction of the FIST (Fire Support Team). Prior to that you had an FO team located primarily with the Company Commander, and he'd move around as necessary - like with the lead platoon of an attack.

One reason for 3 people in the FIST HQ along with the Company Commander is that it's necessary to monitor 3 radio nets - 1) Direct Support to their artillery battery 2) Infantry company or company mortar net.  3) Artillery Battalion or Bn Fire Support Officer net. So each man humps a radio (PRC-77s in my day) The battery Fire Direction Center is going to be monitoring their own 3 FISTs - spread out among the 3 companies of a maneuver battalion, the FA Battalion Fire Direction net (that's the brigade level fire support with all 3 batteries of a FA battalion on it - the FA battalion is supporting a brigade), and the Fire Support officer net (plus Range Control if it's peacetime . 

The functions of the fire support officers in the maneuver battalion HQs/TOC is to preplan all the fires for an upcoming action - attack or defense - which they would do coordinating with the 3 company FISTs and the maneuver battalion staff. Same at the brigade level but higher level planning.

The objective in simplest terms is that EVERY level of maneuver command has artillery staff experts ready to hand, with the comms necessary to get any of the available fire support, and do the fire support planning at that level.

My experience was the Canadians operated very similarly, and it seems from @DougPhresh, so too the British, other than maybe the exact numbers and ranks of people at each level. It's a good system that has proved its worth over many years. I'm sure he would agree.

I have to say though, I enjoyed gunnery more than beating the bushes with the rifleman, and was really good at it. Being the Fire Direction Officer, both at battery and battalion level - was my favorite job.

I hope it's ok to go on and on, but I think it's useful if players have at least a basic understanding of how things work in real life, and then game concepts or restrictions tend to make more sense. And artillery behind the scenes is quite technical (one reason I really loved it). It's all highly controlled and coordinated.

For myself, I'd certainly like to read some similar level discussions put forth by armor and infantry veterans. Lookin' at you @The_Capt and others    For example a lesson in how to extricate yourself from firing positions and drop back to alternate positions without (hopefully) dying too much along the way. Organization, sequence, techniques, what can or should be done (or not). That would be cool. My armor knowledge consists of I've ridden in a couple tanks and I fired a couple rounds from an M60 on a range, and we got the basics of maneuver tactics. Then I went to the 82d where are "tanks" were M551 Sheridans, which I actually never saw in action. I did see a couple LAPES (Low Altitude Parachute Extraction) out of C-130s though, and that was pretty amazing. So my detailed knowledge is all infantry and artillery.

Look for videos of LAPES in YouTube if you want some fun.

Dave

Edited December 13, 2021 by Ultradave