Berlin CMRT Map

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, Artkin said:

In Stalingrad, ironically enough it was most often the 10th NVKD Division themselves who found themselves victim to Stalin's order #227 "Not a Step Back".

You might well be right. But the key phrase in my post was "waiting in the wings".

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

This is very creative, could certainly change the look of those.

Balconies have some fun uses at times. Beside the sunken buildings usage one can also bits of spice up ruins of a crushed city block like here. And it all remains playable for both player and AIP.

Otherwise I find them fairly problematic since one can hardly prevent pixeltroopers from going out there when it´s very bad idea for then coming into LOF of some enemies i.e. Also hopping out onto level terrain (thus leaving the building in parts or entirely) ain´t always desired as well.

1 hour ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Yes, and 16 is a lot of mods to make, many of which probably only get used by a few players, especially 'cos they have to be added when a scenario is created, so takes effort. I reckon we get the defensive works set done then see how much interest there is.

Exactly. One can overdo it easily and more flavors (and options) doesn´t mean a better (looking) map necessarily. And it´s always good if these have some functionality, not just beeing mere eye candy. But beside beeing TacAI movement obstacles I believe there´s little else to them unfortunately. Providing "cover" i.e

2 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Interesting - does the PaK spring back at all - those things certainly have a kick.

Not that I know or recall having seen that with any gun. Normal recoil only.

 

 

[Lucky_Strike]

2 hours ago, Warts 'n' all said:

waiting in the wings

LOL  < I have no idea, someone please explain what this is.

[Lucky_Strike]

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Balconies have some fun uses at times. Beside the sunken buildings usage one can also bits of spice up ruins of a crushed city block like here. And it all remains playable for both player and AIP.

Yes I noticed some in Nigel's Berlin maps which provided good vantage points for snipers and observers. But as you say ...

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Otherwise I find them fairly problematic since one can hardly prevent pixeltroopers from going out there when it´s very bad idea for then coming into LOF of some enemies i.e. Also hopping out onto level terrain (thus leaving the building in parts or entirely) ain´t always desired as well.

one has to keep an eye on where the pixeltruppen decide to stand. I've gotten into the habit of making them hide on balconies, they still peep over but are less vulnerable.

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Providing "cover" i.e

Yeah, I think we've had official feedback on that, and your experiments and recent test map have pretty much shown that they are just glorified traffic cones on the whole 

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Not that I know or recall having seen that with any gun. Normal recoil only.

Of course you know what this means, I now have to go and spend time inside a PaK bunker to find out ... after watching several YT videos of surviving PaKs being gratuitously fired  say hello to my PaK!

Edited October 27, 2022 by Lucky_Strike

[Lucky_Strike]

4 hours ago, JM Stuff said:

Je te remercie infiniment mon brave Lucky.. 

I am sure I am not the only interrested about mds files, I know already one guy and this is...

tic tac tic tac...

This begin by @  frenchy and ended by 56, bingo @Frenchy56I am sure when he will read the post or another guys they will try, hope only that whatever guys that find the solution will be kind and share it.

Couple of days and I am home...I will try the link...I will try the link...

JM

Not that I'm egging you on, and I hope you're not wishing away your holiday, but I feel your excitement!

We wait with bated breath ...

[RockinHarry]

8 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

11 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Balconies have some fun uses at times. Beside the sunken buildings usage one can also bits of spice up ruins of a crushed city block like here. And it all remains playable for both player and AIP.

Yes I noticed some in Nigel's Berlin maps which provided good vantage points for snipers and observers. But as you say ...

Just figured again balconies have their own pathing nodes system. (META?) On 8x8 type mod buildings, balconies can house up to 8 pixeltroopes and just on forward grid nodes. There´s more nodes behind the forward ones (see in Blender), but anbody with crew size > 8 will be left in da house instead. Example case a full strength infantry squad of 10. So one can´t make balconies smaller/less deep (tried in Blender). Infantry still uses the forward nodes, even if actual geometry makes them beeing offside. Also it´s now obvious why balconies are unusually deep/large. Anybody that goes prone on them needs behind space. Likely to avoid possible clipping issues. That from the useless info department. (again)

8 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

one has to keep an eye on where the pixeltruppen decide to stand. I've gotten into the habit of making them hide on balconies, they still peep over but are less vulnerable.

When I give my pixeltruppen orders to occupy a level with balconies I usually set a target arc away from them on last move order node. Think a buildings abstracted staircase plays a role here as well, as maybe is friendly and enemy map edges. Depending on a buildings rotation type (in 2D editor), a staircase can have various directions as well. Bottom up from left or bottom up from right i.e. Depending on it then pixeltroopers seem to have a preference for either turning CW or CCW when reaching and deploying on a buildings level. Can´t recall ATM if it´s a fixed scheme. But good to know if that would be the case, so to avoid a whole squad running on a particular balcony and get mowed down. If it´s "fixed" scheme one can also bits of teach the AIP by use of "face" added to one its scripted move orders.

9 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Yeah, I think we've had official feedback on that, and your experiments and recent test map have pretty much shown that they are just glorified traffic cones on the whole 

Until proven otherwise I think one can stay with this assumption (no flavor object "cover").

9 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Of course you know what this means, I now have to go and spend time inside a PaK bunker to find out ... after watching several YT videos of surviving PaKs being gratuitously fired  say hello to my PaK!

lol Looking forward to what you´ll possibly come up with.

[Lucky_Strike]

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

On 8x8 type mod buildings, balconies can house up to 8 pixeltroopes and just on forward grid nodes. There´s more nodes behind the forward ones (see in Blender), but anbody with crew size > 8 will be left in da house instead. Example case a full strength infantry squad of 10. So one can´t make balconies smaller/less deep (tried in Blender). Infantry still uses the forward nodes, even if actual geometry makes them beeing offside.

You could try deleting some of the nodes to reduce crowding, but I suspect there's both the nodes and metadata involved. On the Panzer IV bunker I thought it best to delete the action points from the decking where grenadiers sit when riding on a tank. Not good. They're easy to delete and the model exported with meta and without error, but there's still something that allows the pixeltruppen to mount the tank. Only they actually appeared to get inside or something, they just disappear into the vehicle, not via the hatches but rather by morphing into it. 

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

That from the useless info department. (again)

Same 

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

But good to know if that would be the case, so to avoid a whole squad running on a particular balcony and get mowed down. If it´s "fixed" scheme one can also bits of teach the AIP by use of "face" added to one its scripted move orders.

Yes, ideal would be to have them stop in the building then crawl out to a balcony if a command is given, AIP would use stop and crawl out, real player would have a choice with AI assisting if threatened.

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Until proven otherwise I think one can stay with this assumption (no flavor object "cover").

My thinking.

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

lol Looking forward to what you´ll possibly come up with.

Apart from a lot of smoke inhalation there's no discernible kick on a PaK in a bunker. Did discover a bug though, probably not the first to notice, but the muzzle flash for all the PaKs comes out of the wall above the Bunker aperture, not from the end of the barrel:

Happens whether emplaced in an embankment as here or on level ground. This in RT don't know about other games.

 

[Lucky_Strike]

On 10/26/2022 at 5:21 AM, NPye said:

Cheers bud here's the link:

https://www.blendswap.com/blend/16543

https://www.blendswap.com/blend/26732

No dice on these I'm afraid (at least not by me). Both use nodes in the models which I'm completely ignorant about. We don't employ them on CM models so I haven't learnt about them at all. They are used in newer versions of Blender by default. The single fence uses a painted texture with a complex mesh, that is it's not got a texture image but rather is coloured in Blender. The other multi fence model looked more promising with simpler meshes, but the image textures are applied via nodes and there are also painted textures which we don't use.

I did notice we have two wooden fences in RT, the picket fence and a kind of split hazel hurdle style fence. So there's easily a model we could replace and still retain a wooden fence of some type for gardens if desired.

If we can find a reworkable model then this is definitely something we could mod.

[RockinHarry]

35 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

You could try deleting some of the nodes to reduce crowding, but I suspect there's both the nodes and metadata involved. On the Panzer IV bunker I thought it best to delete the action points from the decking where grenadiers sit when riding on a tank. Not good. They're easy to delete and the model exported with meta and without error, but there's still something that allows the pixeltruppen to mount the tank. Only they actually appeared to get inside or something, they just disappear into the vehicle, not via the hatches but rather by morphing into it. 

I´s bits of unclear on the "nodes". I mean the 1m resolution internally used by the game engine, then applied to ground mesh and objects (like houses/balconies) invisibly. There´s nothin to delete or add in Blender here unfortunately. So hard coded or META as usual I guess.

Yeah "fun" with crew nodes.

39 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

AIP would use stop and crawl out, real player would have a choice with AI assisting if threatened.

the AIP won´t if "face" command is given additionally. Maybe followed by one the "ambush Xm" command. The latter keeps the facing towards scripted direction, while the circular ambush one lets them "react" according to the mission designers wishes. Basically. One can also go w/o the ambush as the AIP will react on its own when threatened by enemies or simply some beeing spotted and come into LOF. The main issue is luring the AIP into the houses as it dislikes using cover while doing so.

45 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

Apart from a lot of smoke inhalation there's no discernible kick on a PaK in a bunker. Did discover a bug though, probably not the first to notice, but the muzzle flash for all the PaKs comes out of the wall above the Bunker aperture, not from the end of the barrel:

You´ll be even more surprised when deleting the Pak and move and/or rename the crew nodes. Did that just recently.

Apertures is not what would be indicated by an objects actual geometry but rather defined by some META instead. Figured that out some time ago I think. But what META exactly I´m still at a loss. Same principle as applied on buildings, where aperture sizes is far larger than the visible window geometry. No idea why BFC did this. But I heavily dislike the principle. It makes CM buildings a death trap with crappy cover values.

[Lucky_Strike]

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

There´s nothin to delete or add in Blender here unfortunately. So hard coded or META as usual I guess.

Bit like the rock'n'roll effect on tanks then!

6 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Apertures is not what would be indicated by an objects actual geometry but rather defined by some META instead. Figured that out some time ago I think. But what META exactly I´m still at a loss. Same principle as applied on buildings, where aperture sizes is far larger than the visible window geometry. No idea why BFC did this. But I heavily dislike the principle. It makes CM buildings a death trap with crappy cover values.

It's very odd as I would have thought the muzzle flash would be linked to the barrel muzzle as it is in tanks etc, but it seems linked to the structure instead, and yet the PaKs by themselves have a normal muzzle action point ... huh 

[RockinHarry]

14 hours ago, Lucky_Strike said:

21 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Apertures is not what would be indicated by an objects actual geometry but rather defined by some META instead. Figured that out some time ago I think. But what META exactly I´m still at a loss. Same principle as applied on buildings, where aperture sizes is far larger than the visible window geometry. No idea why BFC did this. But I heavily dislike the principle. It makes CM buildings a death trap with crappy cover values.

Expand  

It's very odd as I would have thought the muzzle flash would be linked to the barrel muzzle as it is in tanks etc, but it seems linked to the structure instead, and yet the PaKs by themselves have a normal muzzle action point ... huh 

That´s what I thought as well. So either hard coded or object META. Usually the PAK´s Meta gets deleted with it´s geometry. So is some of that still buried in the pillbox META? It´s also not quite clear if @sbobovyc figured ALL META types and entries and thus made them accessible in the UI. So basically needed data might be in the MDR, but we just can´t see nor edit it (in Blender).

[RockinHarry]

Just found some interesting mail and some my findings I forgot about again in 2020:

RockinHarry

Replied: June 22, 2020

 

good to know you´re still interested in developing your files further. Highly appreciated! 

Some Meta data are quite surely hit- or bounding boxes. The last 2 sections in an objects custom properties (Meta unk1 and 2) fairly much coincide with Blenders bounding box 3D view mode. Each section defines a box in width, length and height (x,y,z), centered on an objects center point. Since there´s 2 of these boxes I guess they serve different purpose. One seems associated with an objects collision zone, used for colliding with other ingame objects. The other could possibly define a zone with LOS/LOF through an object. This comes more apparent when looking at a buildings wall & windows layout. A wall with multiple windows has just a single bounding box on all of the wall sides windows. This might likely explain that infantry can shoot (and get shot) not just through single visible windows but also the wall segments between. I´ll see if I can get any of that confirmed from more play testing.

Most the other meta data as well seems associated with 3D geometry. I´ll see if I can get any of them combined to geometry (or single vertices) and then compare with an objects mesh. This should possibly indicated what it´s likely good for. I´ll start with short Meta1 block first and then see.

Other than that I´d overcame initial issues very fast. Just making sure that all textures and MDR files are in single folder and then exporting in object mode with all of an objects hierarchy selected. Only those objects make problems that lack a dedicated texture and use hard coded references instead. But there´s workarounds. Maybe you could allow exporting any such objects with indirectly referenced textures? Or is that a Blender limitation?

cheers, Harry

 

 

sbobovyc 39

Replied: June 22, 2020

My recommendation is to start sharing these discoveries with others on this forum. Once there is consensus about the meaning of component of this metadata, I would be happy to give them proper names. I don't check the forum very often, so messaging me like this or better yet, opening a ticket on github, will get my attention. 

As to indirect reference to texture, I don't recall seeing any MDR where the texture was not explicitly specified. Can you tell me of an example? 

 

Edited October 28, 2022 by RockinHarry

[Lucky_Strike]

32 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

hat´s what I thought as well. So either hard coded or object META. Usually the PAK´s Meta gets deleted with it´s geometry. So is some of that still buried in the pillbox META?

Or there's some hard-coded stuff that needs looking at ... I've added it to Artkin's giant bug thread lets hope someone notices it eventually 

33 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

It´s also not quite clear if @sbobovyc figured ALL META types and entries and thus made them accessible in the UI. So basically needed data might be in the MDR, but we just can´t see nor edit it (in Blender).

No I don't think he did. IIRC It was on his todo list along with moving the script to a newer version of Blender. There always seem to be two 'unknown' bits of metadata attached to the mdrs when imported, at least on the models I've looked at to date. I'm loath to get into changing metadata as I know how long it would take to test it all, and the margin for error just exporting is an added unknown. I still haven't even noticed if what I do changes any of the metadata, it's so hard to compare a before and after as is - maybe if there's some way to collate it all into a table it might be easier.

 

[Lucky_Strike]

12 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Just found some interesting mail and some my findings I forgot about again in 2020:

This is interesting - how long after sbobovyc 39 had published his Blender addon was this. I wasn't really paying too much attention to this at the time.

[RockinHarry]

Extracted from my old notes file when investigating META data of concrete pillbox object. Maybe someone can figure out or confirm further details. I mainly compared META data with object (vertex) data in 3D space. Switching to Blender´s bounding box view mode is of help here.

Concrete shelter bunker German

Middle point shift to Action Spot (object turns/rotates around this node relative to its set object origin)
y = +3
x = -1

"hull" Object   MDR

meta1_0     Overall height ?
meta1_1     X coordinate (Depth)?
meta1_2     Y coordinate (middle/center point)?
meta1_3     Z coordinate (high point/center of mass)?
meta1_4     Overall width ?
meta1_5     Center of Mass X coordinate?
meta1_6     Center of Mass Y coordinate?
meta1_7     Center of Mass Z coordinate?

Bunker Hull

         Width    Depth    Height
         Y           X            Z    
Meta Unkn1    [5.645, 5.560, 3.536]        (bounding box, unknown purpose)
Meta Unkn2    [6.624, 6.568, 4.069]        (bounding box, unknown purpose)

Y/2= 2.822, X/2= 2.780, z/2= 1.768
Y/2= 3.312, X/2= 3.284, z/2= 2.034

 

[RockinHarry]

39 minutes ago, Lucky_Strike said:

This is interesting - how long after sbobovyc 39 had published his Blender addon was this. I wasn't really paying too much attention to this at the time.

uh... not long after IIRC. My last mail with him was on Barbarossa/Bagration day 2020 and never heard of him again since.

[NPye]

Bloody Hell that all looks so much more involved than I ever thought it would be, it's all above my jead but you guys seem to be getting to grips with it....Nice 1. BTW updated the Box Car, much better now...

and made a sort of Tram, what you guys tink??????

[NPye]

So frustrating, I can't get the blur in-game to work, all I can do is use the field blur filter in PS....

[Warts 'n' all]

2 hours ago, NPye said:

Bloody Hell that all looks so much more involved than I ever thought it would be, it's all above my jead but you guys seem to be getting to grips with it....Nice 1. BTW updated the Box Car, much better now...

and made a sort of Tram, what you guys tink??????

These look really good. Although the "112" is reversed at the right end of the tram in the middle picture.

[NPye]

12 minutes ago, Warts &#x27;n&#x27; all said:

These look really good. Although the "112" is reversed at the right end of the tram in the middle picture.

It's a nightmare, i'm going to change the number to 88 or 888 so it won't be affected. Cheers

[Vacillator]

3 minutes ago, NPye said:

It's a nightmare, i'm going to change the number to 88 or 888 so it won't be affected. Cheers

Haha I made a similar comment to @kohlenklau a while ago about numbering on a Panzer IV (I think) being upside down.  Great work though, keep going - strength and honour!

[NPye]

1 minute ago, Vacillator said:

strength and honour!

lol I only have 1 side on this so I can't change the reverse side to fit like you can on tanks... strength and honour!

 

[kohlenklau]

1 hour ago, NPye said:

1 hour ago, Warts 'n' all said:

These look really good. Although the "112" is reversed at the right end of the tram in the middle picture.

It's a nightmare, i'm going to change the number to 88 or 888 so it won't be affected. Cheers

In Blender, you can maybe try to "flip the normal" on those specific faces in the tram model and get the 112 back in proper image...

[NPye]

37 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

In Blender, you can maybe try to "flip the normal" on those specific faces in the tram model and get the 112 back in proper image...

Hi bud. The trouble is the bmp has only 1 section for the length of the train, it then repeats this x4 plus 1 new texture in the middle. So it can't be done in either blender or on the .bmp file... Cheers

You may be able to see what i mean on this carriage (same .MDR file). The section is from the left the first 2 windows, then it repeats it to make the other sections, the other section are not on the .bmp file? Cheers

 

[kohlenklau]

28 minutes ago, NPye said:

So it can't be done in either blender or on the .bmp file..

If you are happy with it now then no big deal...

But definitely you can change things in Blender with the same bmp. The bmp stays as is. You use Blender to change the model faces over in that last section and how it UV maps back to the bmp. IN FACT, I am thinking it must be an error with face "normals" pointed the wrong way if it is showing reversed as a mirror.