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So after having learned that you can mess around with the map files using a hex editor to make them compatible with other games in the series, i went along and tested it with a map from CM BN and here is the result.

https://imgur.com/a/tc9Q5WI

So nothing looks wrong at first, just a map in CM FB. but then i see tall hedges, and i remember from making maps a while ago that those doesn't exist in CM FB, but yet here they are. Why does tall hedges exist, but you can't place them in the scenario editor. In CM FB you can only place low bocage and hedge, both of which are pretty small and doesn't block vision like these tall hedges do. Is this a joke? Seriously, why is this a thing? This seems so backwards for the series, like several other things in editor. Certain buildings, bridges or other **** that only exist in one orientation, so you are forced to use something else or turn the whole map 45 degrees to have it look properly. Tell me the logic here steve, cus i don't get it. The only way to use tall hedges in CM FB currently would be to convert the map to CM BN, place all tall hedges, then convert the map back to CM FB and there you go. An insane backwards, timeconsuming and unnecessary process to get it done.

Edited by RobZ
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You certainly have a point @RobZ Tell me are the textures used just the same texture as the short hedge repeated and stretched, or does the game have the equivalent of a bocage texture specifically made for tall hedges, would make this doubly perverse. Don’t have FB so can’t check what bmp files it has.

Bocage, or tall hedges, may be less common in other parts of France and Northern Europe, outside of Normandy, but they most definitely exist. And even in winter a proper thick hedge will provide a significant amount of cover, diminished for sure, but still very useful.

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Probably because they are no tall "hedges" in CMBN. There is only a hedge, and it's short/low. There is tall "bocage" in BN, but you know the difference, right?  CMFB also has only a hedge (low) and "low bocage", so not sure what the map in FB is trying to render...and I bet the map is wondering the same thing!

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There's actually an official map in CMFB that has tall bocage, if my memory is not playing tricks on me. Can't remember the name of it right now... But yes, the data for tall bocage is somewhere in the CMFB code, it's just blocked from being used in the editor.

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10 minutes ago, mjkerner said:

Probably because they are no tall "hedges" in CMBN. There is only a hedge, and it's short/low. There is tall "bocage" in BN, but you know the difference, right?  CMFB also has only a hedge (low) and "low bocage", so not sure what the map in FB is trying to render...and I bet the map is wondering the same thing!

Doesn't matter what i call it, the point still stands. Other games other than CMBN lacks tall foliage "walls". While the games still have them, but you can't place it in the scenario editors unless you do what i said with transfering it.

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2 hours ago, RobZ said:

Doesn't matter what i call it, the point still stands. Other games other than CMBN lacks tall foliage "walls". While the games still have them, but you can't place it in the scenario editors unless you do what i said with transfering it.

I was re-reading the other thread you mentioned above just last weekend and was going to try it myself.  But, to be clear, you can see the tall hedge/bocage in the transferred map in-game in CMFB and that the map works fine (but you can't edit the hedge's orientation in the editor)?  I'd just be happy if most maps (some buildings aside) can just be swapped around! 

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4 minutes ago, mjkerner said:

I was re-reading the other thread you mentioned above just last weekend and was going to try it myself.  But, to be clear, you can see the tall hedge/bocage in the transferred map in-game in CMFB and that the map works fine (but you can't edit the hedge's orientation in the editor)?  I'd just be happy if most maps (some buildings aside) can just be swapped around! 

I think you can only place and edit the tall bocage in CMBN, so if you then transfer the map to another game and realise you need to change the bocage, i think you can't do anything except remove it. So the bocage walls has to be preplanned so you don't have to transfer constantly.

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Basically, its like taking a body panel off a Chevrolet, trying to stick it onto a Citroën then wondering why it doesn't fit properly. Yes, they're both sedans with a petrol engine and four wheels but there's no expectation of parts commonality between them. The difference between the maps of some of the titles is small, the differences between the maps of other titles is huge. Modular roof types, flavor objects, bridge types, independent buildings, tree types, etc.

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I did some digging in the game files a while back and as far as I can tell essentially evrything is in a table (series of tables) and pulled from there. I suspect its part of the reason why loading takes so damn long because R isn't made for game usage but its being used in a game here. In this case the tall hedges are turned off in the editor but they still maintain the same ID so when you transfer them from CMBN they work fine. The reason that you've seen an official map with them is likely because BFC has some internal tool to transfer the maps within their development process.

Essentially all the games are the same game but you just have different databases attached.

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On 7/14/2020 at 7:29 AM, RobZ said:

Is this a joke? Seriously, why is this a thing? This seems so backwards for the series, like several other things in editor. Certain buildings, bridges or other **** that only exist in one orientation, so you are forced to use something else or turn the whole map 45 degrees to have it look properly. Tell me the logic here steve, cus i don't get it. 

I may not fully understand what you are unhappy about in your post.  I think you are asking why CMFB does not come with the same Bocage (tall) that CMBN does?  And you're asking why CMFB only has Low Bocage? 

Bocage (Tall) was a major terrain feature in Normandy (Bocage fighting) but was not a major terrain feature in The Battle of the Bulge around Bastogne.  This probably resulted in Bocage (tall) getting added to CMBN but not in CMFB, CMFI or CMRT.  I would be okay if Bocage (tall) was found in CMFB but its reasonable and understandable that it is not.  

But maybe we are talking about two different things and I'm not understanding your post.  I notice that you ask if it is a joke, and if it is serious and why is it a thing and state it is backwards for the series.  All this because a less than common terrain feature for the CMFB area was not included in the release of CMFB? 

 

On 7/14/2020 at 7:29 AM, RobZ said:

like several other things in editor. Certain buildings, bridges or other **** that only exist in one orientation, so you are forced to use something else or turn the whole map 45 degrees to have it look properly. Tell me the logic here steve, cus i don't get it. The only way to use tall hedges in CM FB currently would be to convert the map to CM BN, place all tall hedges, then convert the map back to CM FB and there you go. An insane backwards, timeconsuming and unnecessary process to get it done.

In fairness to Battlefront how would they reasonably think a customer would attempt to use Final Blitzkrieg instead of Battle for Normandy to recreate the Normandy Bocage fighting?  If that's what you are doing............. ?  Wouldn't it be easier to just use Normandy?  Again, I apologize if I'm misunderstanding what you are saying.      

I agree improvements can be made to the editor.  Having to use one section of barbwire or trench to change the facing of another section can be a bit fiddly.  IMO not a big deal after you understand how it works but this could probably be improved.    

What scenario did you create where you turned the map 45 degrees to make it look right?   I'm often interested in finding new scenarios to play.  :)

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@MOS:96B2P I made bastogne for CM FB, and bastogne's main road is 40 degrees from north so naturally I started to make the map at a 45 degree angle to stay true to north. I realised after a while into making the map that there was several assets that only existed in the 0-90 degree orientation and it made it very difficult, so eventually I just turned the whole map to 0 degrees to have access to most assets I needed.

Several places I wanted tall hedge type walls, but that doesn't exist in any other game other than CMBN and didn't know about transferring at the time. What I mean by the post is that I think all options should be available even if it's less common for the tall "bocage" type walls to be outside of Normandy, cus they can be used as tall hedges or other obstacles.

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