stikkypixie Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 Hi, I have started playing CMBS again, and one of thing I have ran against is that bigger maps, it can be really hard to judge LOS. One the WW2 titles this is less of an issue because of the lower lethality of the weapons involved. CMBS in that regard is very unforgiving. I have sent men forward thinking that they are taking a covered route only for them to shot at. How do you guys approach this? And is there some third party utility some annotate the game? For the bigger scenario's it would help to keep a plan coherent while across playthrough spread over multiple days. Thanks! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 This is one of the weaknesses of the CM series in general. Ways around it: - Get the camera down to eye level, use the Zoom keys (Z/X) to judge what they can actually see - Use the Target tool from any suspect action spots - Take your time, and use safe movement techniques to guard against the unexpected - whether that's something happening you didn't intend, or to cover any mistakes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 17, 2019 Author Share Posted November 17, 2019 When I try to get to eye level, I run into the opposite problem. Sometimes when I think I have LOS, it turns out that when I put my men on the position they actually don't. My best guess that's due to the posture, with vehicles this is less of an issue for me. Can anyone confirm that LOS is from the base of the tile? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BornGinger Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 I can only say that LOS is unpredictable and often annoys me very much. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 21 minutes ago, stikkypixie said: Can anyone confirm that LOS is from the base of the tile? Posture does matter. So if a tank commander has LOS to a target that does not mean that the gunner and gun does. Similarly, if the 3rd ammo carrier of an HMG team has LOS to a target but the gunner does not, the LOS tool appears to allow you to fire at the target, but the HMG will not. Similarly, a running man/squad can have LOS, but as soon as he stops and kneels, he loses LOS. CM2 can be thought of as "The game of LOS determination". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 With the T34-76, where the commander also acts a gunner, I've often had the experience where he pops his head out of the turret, spots the target, pops down to the gunner's seat and loses the target. Stug has a similar problem in that the roof-mounted optics allow the to peer over a close terrain feature that the low-mounted gun cannot fire over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 LOS is drawn from the eyes of the model. The LOS *tool* is pre-drawn from specific heights in the hex, to specific heights in other hexes. Crawling, Standing, Vehicle, Tall vehicles, etc. This lookup table is created when the map is made, and is the reason why LOS calcs from the tool are instantaneous. It also means that, sometimes, a figure can't see something when the tool says it can, and vice versa. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 3 hours ago, stikkypixie said: How do you guys approach this? Be damn sure it is a covered approach. If it isn't a hill or a building, lay down a wall of smoke. Don't count, for instance, on trees. Trees are extremely porous for the AI. They might under certain circumstances offer you some concealment, but I wouldn't count on them to protect any troops that I care about. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 5 hours ago, stikkypixie said: My best guess that's due to the posture, with vehicles this is less of an issue for me. Can anyone confirm that LOS is from the base of the tile? There are 5 ground heights in the game in terms of LOS, LOF, and Spotting: Prone, Kneeling, Standing/Small Vehicle, Tall Vehicle, Very Tall Vehicle. LOS is from the eyes of your unit to a fixed position 1m off the ground. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said: LOS is from the eyes of your unit to a fixed position 1m off the ground. What if you are trying to spot onto an upper floor of a multi-story building? Is your LOS still drawn to a spot a meter above the ground, you know, where the dirt is? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 17, 2019 Share Posted November 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said: What if you are trying to spot onto an upper floor of a multi-story building? Is your LOS still drawn to a spot a meter above the ground, you know, where the dirt is? I think in your example it would be a meter above the floor of the story you were looking at. So a meter above the linoleum. Or ceramic if you are a big spender . I "think" this is how it would work in your example. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 15 hours ago, Michael Emrys said: Be damn sure it is a covered approach. If it isn't a hill or a building, lay down a wall of smoke. Don't count, for instance, on trees. Trees are extremely porous for the AI. They might under certain circumstances offer you some concealment, but I wouldn't count on them to protect any troops that I care about. Michael For me this approach does not scale well. If you have to get a platoon across a 1km map, there won't be enough smoke. The only way I have found that sort of works, is by sending small teams in lead positions. But this is only marginally better because you need teams in overwatch to be able to see what's shooting them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 19 hours ago, domfluff said: - Get the camera down to eye level, use the Zoom keys (Z/X) to judge what they can actually see 17 hours ago, stikkypixie said: When I try to get to eye level, I run into the opposite problem. Sometimes when I think I have LOS, it turns out that when I put my men on the position they actually don't. That's because you can't actually get the camera down to eye level. I think it goes down to eye level of a standing man, but troops are usually kneeling or prone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 One thing that helps me estimate LOS is using the zoom key (x) to zoom in a bit, around 5x. I find that makes it easier to "walk through" the landscape and judge LOS to/from various places. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 4 hours ago, stikkypixie said: If you have to get a platoon across a 1km map, there won't be enough smoke. This sounds to me—albeit without seeing the map—like bad strategy then. You need something to suppress the areas you might receive fire from, like lots of artillery, or tanks providing overwatch fire. Lacking both of those or something equivalent, concede the scenario and move on. There are some things you just can't do, both in real life and in games and not admitting it is just dishonest. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 41 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said: This sounds to me—albeit without seeing the map—like bad strategy then. You need something to suppress the areas you might receive fire from, like lots of artillery, or tanks providing overwatch fire. Lacking both of those or something equivalent, concede the scenario and move on. There are some things you just can't do, both in real life and in games and not admitting it is just dishonest. Michael Obviously not 1km long maps as in a pool table, but rather 1km maps composed of smaller LOS islands. I'll try post a screenshot tonight. You are right though, that I probably should take more conservative approaches where LOS can be judged with higher probability. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 I often use the 'target' tool to see how far the unit's LOF extends then basically do short hops from 'safe' zone to just before the LOF blue line stops. Helps plotting movement orders to plot a 'target' command then plot the movement order to just before that. You can then cancel the target command and rinse and repeat or if feeling lucky repeat for each unit. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 22 minutes ago, George MC said: I often use the 'target' tool to see how far the unit's LOF extends then basically do short hops from 'safe' zone to just before the LOF blue line stops. Helps plotting movement orders to plot a 'target' command then plot the movement order to just before that. You can then cancel the target command and rinse and repeat or if feeling lucky repeat for each unit. +1. Interesting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 1 hour ago, George MC said: I often use the 'target' tool to see how far the unit's LOF extends then basically do short hops from 'safe' zone to just before the LOF blue line stops. Helps plotting movement orders to plot a 'target' command then plot the movement order to just before that. You can then cancel the target command and rinse and repeat or if feeling lucky repeat for each unit. Can you elaborate on this a bit? Are you finding safe zones relative to your starting position? Or are you doing something else here? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 This is an example of an LOS situation I find difficult to judge using the eye ball method. From camera preset 1 it looks like this position is covered by the little rise, but the targetting line still indicates a shot is possible (even though the targetting line cuts through the terrain). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 (edited) 29 minutes ago, stikkypixie said: Can you elaborate on this a bit? Are you finding safe zones relative to your starting position? Or are you doing something else here? Aye sorry bit rubbish explanation. Sorry away from the game at the mo so no chance of screenshots for now. I use my unit's 'target' command to see how far they have LOF/LOS for (as and when line turns from light blue to dark blue). I plot the 'target' command then plot a movement order to just before the end point of the target command. This means my unit is travelling as far as they can see, and then stopping just before that. Although this no guard against flanking fire... That's why this is done in an overall mutual support context - with other units securing my flanks. At their end point I can either slowly 'hunt' forward - again using the 'target' command to see at what point the line turns from light blue to dark blue - to the 'crest' and plotting the movement command just before that point where the line turns from light blue to dark blue. I find it easier to achieve a turret down position with armour doing this (where you get the grey line when using the LOS/LOF tool). In your screenshot example (that looks like one of my maps you're playing on BTW ) I'd be cautious because if it shows I have LOS/LOF to that point the enemy could be the same. So I'd be cautious if you can see do that so can the enemy. My method works best in open terrain. Close terrain is a knife fight really, and that's where combined arms.area fire and prep arty/mortar fire comes into its own. Oh that and sending in scouts first. Edited November 18, 2019 by George MC 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 3 hours ago, George MC said: I often use the 'target' tool to see how far the unit's LOF extends then basically do short hops from 'safe' zone to just before the LOF blue line stops. Helps plotting movement orders to plot a 'target' command then plot the movement order to just before that. You can then cancel the target command and rinse and repeat or if feeling lucky repeat for each unit. I do this a lot too. It's especially useful in wooded areas. Michael 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 A command that makes confusing use of LOS is the 'hull down' command. You give a vehicle a hull down movement order to a spot on the map. The vehicle comes to a halt when the gun tube's LOF clears the intervening terrain. But there's a catch! The hull down command is not for that spot of terrain but to vehicle height above that spot of terrain. If a Panther rolls over that spot you'll see the Panther. If infantry are moving over that spot you might not see them because you're clearing the intervening terrain just enough to spot the upper half of a tank. Any more and you'd lose your hull-down advantage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted November 18, 2019 Author Share Posted November 18, 2019 2 hours ago, George MC said: Aye sorry bit rubbish explanation. Sorry away from the game at the mo so no chance of screenshots for now. I use my unit's 'target' command to see how far they have LOF/LOS for (as and when line turns from light blue to dark blue). I plot the 'target' command then plot a movement order to just before the end point of the target command. This means my unit is travelling as far as they can see, and then stopping just before that. Although this no guard against flanking fire... That's why this is done in an overall mutual support context - with other units securing my flanks. At their end point I can either slowly 'hunt' forward - again using the 'target' command to see at what point the line turns from light blue to dark blue - to the 'crest' and plotting the movement command just before that point where the line turns from light blue to dark blue. I find it easier to achieve a turret down position with armour doing this (where you get the grey line when using the LOS/LOF tool). In your screenshot example (that looks like one of my maps you're playing on BTW ) I'd be cautious because if it shows I have LOS/LOF to that point the enemy could be the same. So I'd be cautious if you can see do that so can the enemy. My method works best in open terrain. Close terrain is a knife fight really, and that's where combined arms.area fire and prep arty/mortar fire comes into its own. Oh that and sending in scouts first. It is one of your maps :). Indeed you have set up the LOS there to be very ambiguous. My poor eyes really have trouble gauging the lay of the terrain. I think the lesson for me is to avoid the ambiguities on the map where possible and find an approach that offers more guarantees. Sure hope BFC change their minds and give some better way of interpreting the terrain, but until then I'll have to learn the hard way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted November 18, 2019 Share Posted November 18, 2019 The best trick I have learned is to use the target and move commands together. here is what I mean. What can the enemy unit see. Example - I know the location of a enemy tank. I take one of my tanks and plot a move to the enemy tank location. when that point is plotted, I then use target command from that point and I can see what is indicated from there as blue line visible. (just remember to clear these commands after getting the info.) Where will I be able to move to and for sure see the enemy. (same as above but I am targeting the area I think I want to move to, when I see the blue line I know I have a spot that will likely give me my visual I want.) Anyway, a very painful way of doing it, I don't use it much, but when its a critical situation I want to get right and it really matters. its the best way to get good results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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