Help With Map Overlay

[Combatintman]

14 hours ago, brisbane said:

No, I had it in Games Files folder. This was the mistake.

I have put in the Data folder and it works...... Thank you so much...... Yupiiiiiiii.......

 

I would rotate that map - you will struggle to recreate the quays at the harbour if they're at an angle.  Rotating it something along the lines below will help:

 

Also if this is your first attempt at making a map in CM using a real map overlay then this is an ambitious way to start.  I've been making maps for years and I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole because:

• No matter how you rotate the map, you have lots of compromises to make due to the overall flow of the roads and railways.
• The map is huge if I'm interpreting the grids correctly and this is a 3 x 3km map.
• There is a combination of roads, buildings and closely spaced contours on the north of the harbour inlet which even the best map makers will struggle to get to look right in 3D and will also cause issues for building entry by dismounted troops due to entrances and windows sinking into the terrain.
• I'm assuming that the coastline north of the harbour inlet is a cliff facing the sea - again these often don't look great in 3D in CM.
• The 3x3 size of the map; the extent of the urban area, which is about a quarter of the map; and, sharp elevation changes in this map could cause a CTD when you try and load it as these are all things that will stress your computer.

I don't want to put you off but I would also hate to see you spend a month on this map lovingly getting everything just right and then end up with something that CTDs and you finding that you have wasted a lot of precious time.  Why ... it happened to me with a map of Kham Duc I was trying to create for @37mm's Heaven and Earth mod for Shock Force 2.  Although that map didn't have much in the way of buildings, it had a whole bunch of steep elevation changes.  I can't recall the size of it, I think it started at about 2.5km x 2.5km but even after cropping it and softening some of the elevations, I could never get it to load in 3D.

Also, even if you don't run into this problem with the map - once you add units, AI plans, briefings and briefing graphics the file size increases and if you're lucky and the game doesn't crash, you could end up with low frame rates during game play.

Go ahead by all means and I wish you the best of luck ... but don't say I didn't warn you ...

[benpark]

2 hours ago, Combatintman said:

I would rotate that map

Abso-lutely. Working from a source map will always have compromises to make with the available tools at hand, but rotating the map at start to make life bearable for roads and railways is going to help your mental health and the look of the map 1000x over.

[kohlenklau]

BEWARE!!!....the graveyard of unfinished maps and scenarios!!!!

[Combatintman]

1 hour ago, kohlenklau said:

BEWARE!!!....the graveyard of unfinished maps and scenarios!!!!

But embrace the finished ones:

[Aragorn2002]

Just found this old thread. This is going to help me! Thanks guys.

[Aragorn2002]

Another question. I use an aerial photo as overlay in the CM editor, but the scale of that photo is too large. The central square of the town for instance should be something like 100x100 metres, but is now 300x300 metres. How can I adjust this?

[domfluff]

The overlay will stretch to fit the map size. Ideally you know the exact dimensions of the full source photo, and then set the map to those dimensions.

If the source photo is too small, then you'll need to create an image of the correct size in an editor, with a blank area around it, so that the overlay is representative of whatever the eventual size will be.

If the source photo is too large, you'll want to cut it down in an image editor to suit the scale you want to represent.

If the source photo represents everything you want to represent on the map, then you just need to change the map size to suit whatever the scale should be, and you'll be fine.

[kohlenklau]

I thought I would rattle off some of my thoughts and get some juices flowing!

My z folders, with an s, are filled with various "special editor overlay.bmp" files. Of course, they all get renamed a bit as they become "not the real one you use".

They collect up as a sort of memory lane of maps I may have INTENDED to do or maybe actually finished (I hope!).

Vitebsk special editor overlay.bmp

old ortona special editor overlay.bmp

when I get all Rambo, I sometimes go "seo krasny bor a.bmp" vs "seo kransy bor b.bmp"

...but the one you see when you load your specific CM title is THE special editor overlay.bmp

It is the pixel aspect ratio of the special editor overlay.bmp that MUST match to the CM dimensions meters aspect ratio.

if your map is 416m wide by 832m tall you can use any "special editor overlay.bmp" with pixels of the same "aspect ratio" which is 1 wide by 2 tall.

A very detailed special editor overlay.bmp could then be 1200 by 2400 pixels in shape. 400 to 800 is the same as 1200 to 2400 for the map editor,

It would not be stretched to fit! Use 1000 by 2400 and you would see it stretched oddly left to right.

You could grab a screenshot from google earth or an old WW2 Wehrmacht map and use paint.NET or whatever to get any image of the same ratio of pixels width to height.

My philosophy...

You can let your terrain map rectangle dictate your final CM map dimensions...

or 

You can let your desired CM map dimensions dictate what you must go grab from the the terrain map.

~~~~

I think you can see in the real world the areas of the terrain that will be a big time suck for little interest value payoff.

You then can decide to purposefully NOT have them in your map. Using the same 416m tall by 832m wide map TARGETED MAP SIZE, slightly move that "box" to the north to avoid some P.I.A.T. (pain in the arse-to create in CM) odd river fork! It just might not be worth it for the scenario.

For example: An Ardennes Bulge CM map could have SOME ugly terrain just to show some of the rugged nature of the offroads. But would you need just tons of it everywhere? At some point the exact modelling of the real terrain is so exhausting beyond the merits of showing it in the scenario. Right?

BUT with CMAutoEditor, maybe that Ardennes terrain creation is not so exhaustive and you can be leaning towards getting that exact lay of the land...

If I was able to be the "map initial elevation preparer cook" in the process, I would want to be working with a team that valued smaller maps and would not just go "huge" with multi km maps, battalion OOBs and a 2 hour scenario. The modern weapons of CMCW/BS/SF2 may demand this and maybe some long range WW2 armor or ATG action might be cool (Halfaya Pass) but MANY MANY battles/scenarios are fine for smaller maps, smaller OOBs and shorter lengths of time. A matter of taste to some degree of course.

Because after all, you still need a good AI plan for that "huge" scenario...

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by kohlenklau

[RockinHarry]

On 12/18/2022 at 9:45 AM, Aragorn2002 said:

Another question. I use an aerial photo as overlay in the CM editor, but the scale of that photo is too large. The central square of the town for instance should be something like 100x100 metres, but is now 300x300 metres. How can I adjust this?

side note: One thing to remember is that topo maps show buidlings and built up areas artificially enlarged for map readability. Same for other map elements, like roads IIRC. So best is to have an additional aerial photo to load in map editor (o - overlay) to get size relations in order. Not that a building that on topo map looks like CM 16x16m building in fact is (or was) an 8x8m one.

[kohlenklau]

@Aragorn2002

For you or others training purposes.

I made a few quicky scenario editor overlays for Schirwindt. a bigger 2km x 2km and a smaller 1km by 1km of "northwest Schirwindt"...

I used the old Wehrmacht(?) maps that @Combatintman had shown in another thread.

Try one at at a time for training & practice.

You would need to rename either to just "scenario editor overlay" and put it in CMRT z folder then restart CMRT.

If you then open a new scenario in the CMRT editor, you must change the default starting map size of 320 x 320 to match either 1km by 1km. or <<gulp>>, the big mama 2km by 2km. (I made a little text notation on each image to remind the trainee! 1km x 1km and 2km x 2km)

Use if you want, no worry if you don't. It is in my goodybox so others can also try it to see how it works.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yzv4xicma3fkeik/AADxelz4rtznppiuTUy3uOsXa?dl=0

Edited December 20, 2022 by kohlenklau

[Aragorn2002]

35 minutes ago, kohlenklau said:

@Aragorn2002

For you or others training purposes.

I made a few quicky scenario editor overlays for Schirwindt. a bigger 2km x 2km and a smaller 1km by 1km of "northwest Schirwindt"...

I used the old Wehrmacht(?) maps that @Combatintman had shown in another thread.

Try one at at a time for training & practice.

You would need to rename either to just "scenario editor overlay" and put it in CMRT z folder then restart CMRT.

If you then open a new scenario in the CMRT editor, you must change the default starting map size of 320 x 320 to match either 1km by 1km. or <<gulp>>, the big mama 2km by 2km. (I made a little text notation on each image to remind the trainee! 1km x 1km and 2km x 2km)

Use if you want, no worry if you don't. It is in my goodybox so others can also try it to see how it works.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yzv4xicma3fkeik/AADxelz4rtznppiuTUy3uOsXa?dl=0

Thank you so much, Phil. Definitely going to try this. I have a lot to learn and this will help a lot. Stubborn as I am, I will go for the bigger map.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Aragorn2002

[kohlenklau]

5 minutes ago, Aragorn2002 said:

Stubborn as I am, I will go for the bigger map

I think that a lot of early thought and analysis is best before you actually nail down the "box". Like @Combatintman advised, you sit back with a cup of coffee (or tea?) and decide if it is best to "rotate the world" and "tweak reality a bit here and there" to make the process better/easier/faster.

"ROTATE THE WORLD" this allows the road angle limits of CM to show up better in the final product. You CAN use the special editor overlay to make a tiny low effort experiment to see how this works. GeorgeMC has also said he does rotation decision early in the planning so map creation efforts don't go in the trash as wasted man-hours.

"TWEAK REALITY" This might be where you purposefully move something "outside the box" so you do not have to create it in CM. Maybe some fork in the river or an odd but not so important little cliff, I don't know.

...one other thing is that sometimes it can be useful to go "map hunting" or "map shopping" and find an EXISTING map to copy/rename and gut out what you don't want and change and recreate into what you want. To me, sometimes it just helps my mental workload as I see the EXISTING map in the editor and it really has so much ALREADY done. Delete the landmarks and objectives if they are there. Master Maps are fully intended for this purpose and nobody really owns the maps. If you feel the need, tip your hat in your designer's notes with a comment "I used a map from forumite yada yada, his scenario yada yada". Just another way to get your scenario completed. That is the goal! 

[kohlenklau]

the freeware program paint.NET is very easy to use for rotating your s.e.o. and resizing and drawing boxes.It is not as robust in capability as GiMP or Photoshop but it does support layers. This can be used in a bigger map image to try and define and create and save your final s.e.o.

As an example, in an upper layer you could create a perfect square box (x pixels by x pixels) that could be 1km by 1km (as per the scale of the BIG map you have down in a lower layer) or whatever size you wanted as long as a known dimension.

Then you use a drag tool to move it around as you see what parts of the map you want in your s.e.o.

Then you could rotate a bit clockwise or counter-clockwise to get a majority of your key roads/rails to be "more tame" in 0-45-90 degree angles.

Then you carefully copy that final box and save as a new image which is your s.e.o.

We're all here to help you learn to fish versus giving you a fish. The old biblical phrase.

 

[Combatintman]

The key thing before doing anything in the scenario editor is to have an idea of what it is you're trying to portray.  Is this a historical action?  In which case you use what happened as your starting point and then compromise along the way if you have to because of the constraints of the scenario editor.  Is it going to be playable both sides?  In which case the map has to give both players sufficient room to manoeuvre to allow them to come up with alternate plans.  Even if it is only single player vs the AI, there needs to be room for the AI plans to play out.  What are the force sizes and will there be enough room for them to be employed realistically and effectively?  I'd start with a slightly larger map and sketch out the schemes of manoeuvre first so that you get an idea of how it is going to play out.  From there you can work out where exactly your map boundaries need to be and what the key features are on that map.  You can then either increase or decrease the size of the area you think your'e going to need, or maybe move the map up or down by 500m (or whatever) or left or right by 1km (or whatever).  Once you're happy ... then create the Special Editor Overlay and start making your map.

You also have to think about setup zones and making the thing big enough if terrain isn't blocking LOS between the setup zones for both sides to setup safe in the knowledge that they're not going to massacre each other on turn one.

If you leap in using the overlay you've got you may find that the moment you start putting troops on it that:

• There isn't enough room for the attacker setup zone.
• Both sides kill each other on turn one.
• You have to change the battle/your concept to fit the map.
• Your scenario is unappealing because there's really only one course of action.
• Mortar setup zones and the area in which you want the rounds to fall are either within minimum range or beyond maximum range.
• The attacking player (or AI) can be easily hemmed into their setup zone because of either short ranges or terrain factors that give the defender an unassailable advantage.
• The defender has limited options in siting the defence. 

There's a reason the military does a ground appreciation first which neatly translates to the art/science of scenario making.

[kohlenklau]

I am definitely a small fry when it comes to scenarios and maps so in the immortal words of Snagglepuss I will now exit stage left!

Best wishes to all budding scenario and map makers!

[Artkin]

On 2/6/2022 at 11:17 AM, Heirloom_Tomato said:

@brisbane I downloaded your file and it worked for me. I assume you have spaces between each word in your file? So the file name is special editor overlay? I also assume you know to go to "map" in the editor and press O to change the level of transparency?

Why do the overlays make that annoying overlap on the left side? I guess the problem isn't just restricted to me. It's not the end of the world but I know I'll have to chop off that edge of the map after I finish. 

[benpark]

The graphic file has a strip at the left side that doesn't fit- that's not a condition of the Editor. This area that should be cropped is also visible in the screen at the top of page 2, as well as in the Editor image. The Overlay file needs to be cropped of that strip to get rid of it (and probably resized/redone), and be sure that edge is depicted correctly if a historical area.

I do spend a good deal of time in Photoshop getting the edges set before the final crop. This is saying nothing about the amount of research to find a multiplicity of source material, of course.

I generally try to have several Overlays that I swap in and out:

-The "standard" Overlay, as depicted here. A period map, slightly rotated for road/rail networks if necessary for CM purposes (road angles!).

-Any/all aerial imagery from the period depicted, down to day of battle if possible (in Normandy, it sometimes is!).

-A file that has both of the above, together with both visible to varying degrees. Map may be 80% opacity, aerial image may be 20% (or some ratio where I can see an appropriate amount of both). This may get adjusted for visibility, so I keep an unflattened Photoshop file for this. It can become somewhat involved, but that part is up to the designer's amount of tolerance for this type of thing.

-A color-coded map of terrain, if complex (swamps, etc). This would be if water courses/forests/etc. were difficult to read in the above. I simply paint these color-field ares in over a topo map in the relevant areas.

There could be additional versions of the above. This could be represented by alternate maps, aerial recon runs from different days due to cloud cover, etc. I may be forgetting one, but that's the gist if you want to delve into the Overlay.

I also will use the Overlay for making AI plans, which is generally 2-3 files with times and unit positions. This helps to track the arc of everything.

The Overlay function is really useful. I think there are probably additional ways it could be mined, so be creative with it.

 

[Artkin]

32 minutes ago, benpark said:

The graphic file has a strip at the left side that doesn't fit- that's not a condition of the Editor. This area that should be cropped is also visible in the screen at the top of page 2, as well as in the Editor image. The Overlay file needs to be cropped of that strip to get rid of it (and probably resized/redone), and be sure that edge is depicted correctly if a historical area.

Sorry, not sure if I'm following you here. I can recall two of my overlays having this issue off the top of my head. I've used five or so by now (Can't remember if all of them had this issue). I've used images from google maps and images from Armored Brigade which look fine as a .bmp but have the random left bit in the editor.

Edit: Ah I see, the original image had the uncropped portion. Mine have this issue. Maybe it's from the conversion to 24bit bmp? I think I use a website for conversions so maybe that's why. Oops.

The top image is the overlay .bmp from the desktop, and the bottom is ingame with the red rectangle outlining the offending slice.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Artkin

[benpark]

The .bmp format is something of an outlier as far as image processing and export goes. It is "lossless", so great for what it needs to do in CM terms (and editing, generally). It doesn't seem to do so well with some exporters. Photoshop is likely to manage these exporters well, others with more varying results.

I can't really speak to how well this free Adobe knock-off will do with .bmp's, but the format is very much the same and may be worth a try (if not the website you already use):

https://www.photopea.com/

Interesting looking map!

Edited February 15, 2023 by benpark

[Artkin]

7 hours ago, benpark said:

The .bmp format is something of an outlier as far as image processing and export goes. It is "lossless", so great for what it needs to do in CM terms (and editing, generally). It doesn't seem to do so well with some exporters. Photoshop is likely to manage these exporters well, others with more varying results.

I can't really speak to how well this free Adobe knock-off will do with .bmp's, but the format is very much the same and may be worth a try (if not the website you already use):

https://www.photopea.com/

Interesting looking map!

Ah thank you. I think maybe it's the exporter. I was trying to use gimp but I was doing it wrong, JM Stuff told me the correct way to do it, but I haven't tried since. If that fails I will give your website a shot.

Thanks again, the map is far along, but with most projects of mine I got a little bored of it already. The fine details are always the toughest for me.

The map is originally from the Chechyna map mod for armored brigade, and this is the top right 3.8 x 3.8km

 

Edited February 15, 2023 by Artkin

[Combatintman]

I use plain and simple old Paint and I don't have any issues with my overlays.

[Aragorn2002]

On 12/20/2022 at 3:24 PM, kohlenklau said:

@Aragorn2002

For you or others training purposes.

I made a few quicky scenario editor overlays for Schirwindt. a bigger 2km x 2km and a smaller 1km by 1km of "northwest Schirwindt"...

I used the old Wehrmacht(?) maps that @Combatintman had shown in another thread.

Try one at at a time for training & practice.

You would need to rename either to just "scenario editor overlay" and put it in CMRT z folder then restart CMRT.

If you then open a new scenario in the CMRT editor, you must change the default starting map size of 320 x 320 to match either 1km by 1km. or <<gulp>>, the big mama 2km by 2km. (I made a little text notation on each image to remind the trainee! 1km x 1km and 2km x 2km)

Use if you want, no worry if you don't. It is in my goodybox so others can also try it to see how it works.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/yzv4xicma3fkeik/AADxelz4rtznppiuTUy3uOsXa?dl=0

I've decided to cease my Goldap project for now, Phil, and concentrate on Schirwindt first. Are the above overlays still in your dropbox and if so, can you please give me a link? This one ain't working.

And yes, you were right of course. Goldap is far too complicated for me. Perhaps one day in the future.

Edit: I think I found them on my pc, Phil. I couldn't imagine I didn't download them at the time and take a good look at them. They are perfect. Thank you again! I think  there are not many elevations, which makes making a map a lot easier. With Goldap that's an entirely different matter.

Also a big thank you to @Combatintman of course!

Edited August 13, 2023 by Aragorn2002

[Aragorn2002]

3 hours ago, Aragorn2002 said:

I've decided to cease my Goldap project for now, Phil, and concentrate on Schirwindt first. Are the above overlays still in your dropbox and if so, can you please give me a link? This one ain't working.

And yes, you were right of course. Goldap is far too complicated for me. Perhaps one day in the future.

Edit: I think I found them on my pc, Phil. I couldn't imagine I didn't download them at the time and take a good look at them. They are perfect. Thank you again! I think  there are not many elevations, which makes making a map a lot easier. With Goldap that's an entirely different matter.

Also a big thank you to @Combatintman of course!

@kohlenklau, I thought I found them, but didn't. The ones I found are Combatintman's pictures, which you used for making the overlays. So, please can you post a link to those overlays again?

[Combatintman]

@Aragorn2002 I actually deleted the Schirwindt images from my hard drive a few days ago but pm me if you need any help and I can revisit this and either step you through the process or knock up some overlays.

[Aragorn2002]

14 minutes ago, Combatintman said:

@Aragorn2002 I actually deleted the Schirwindt images from my hard drive a few days ago but pm me if you need any help and I can revisit this and either step you through the process or knock up some overlays.

Thank you, @Combatintman, that would be very welcome.