Euri Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 I need to understand better how getting bogged and Immobilisation works. I am in a game with hot conditions and VERY DRY ground and I order an Abrams to move FAST on a dirt ROAD. And after a while it gets bogged down and then immobilised. Why does this happen? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicky Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 Immobilisations happen even on the best of roads... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted November 24, 2016 Share Posted November 24, 2016 1. It's a game that is a system of numbers and variables being run are attempting to simulate realistic outcomes. Undoubtedly there's still enough of an allowance for mobility issues on dry dirt roads that rarely the dice will roll and come up snakeeyes for the player. 2. If you want a narrative reason why it might happen: Moving fast on all tanks can be tricky, as the centrifugal force of the track links going around places excessive force on the track pins, and can cause the pins to break/warp to the degree the tank throws a track and is immobilized. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanov Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Ehm, is there a possibility that a bogged down vehicle may become unbogged during the same game? In one of my games, 33% of my armor just got immobilized ( it's a tiny battle, so I only have 3 vehicles there ). This is a devastating outcome 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 It is certainly possible for a vehicle to become unbogged. I watched one do it just last night. It rocked a bit for a turn or two and then completed the movement I had set for it. What I find puzzling is how 3 is 67% of any whole number. Did you start out with 4.5 vehicles? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 32 minutes ago, Ivanov said: Ehm, is there a possibility that a bogged down vehicle may become unbogged during the same game? In one of my games, 33% of my armor just got immobilized ( it's a tiny battle, so I only have 3 vehicles there ). This is a devastating outcome Un-bogged yes. Immobilized no. Once bogged they will un-bogg themselves or go to immobilized. Once immobilized they remain so for the remainder of the mission. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanov Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Michael Emrys said: It is certainly possible for a vehicle to become unbogged. I watched one do it just last night. It rocked a bit for a turn or two and then completed the movement I had set for it. What I find puzzling is how 3 is 67% of any whole number. Did you start out with 4.5 vehicles? Michael Well I hope then, it will soon become operational I meant one third of my whole armor force got immobilized. That is one vehicle out of three. Hope that makes sense Edited November 29, 2016 by Ivanov 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivanov Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said: Un-bogged yes. Immobilized no. Once bogged they will un-bogg themselves or go to immobilized. Once immobilized they remain so for the remainder of the mission. That doesn't sound encouraging Thanks for the info anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euri Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 I still think that the probabilities of bogging -> imobilising are a bit exaggerated in the game - especially in dry dirt terrain. My initial post was not a singularity, rather a series of incidents occurring at an usual frequency which i felt I should discuss further 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pericles Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 There is a reason the developers gave us the option of "fast" and "quick" movement. Stop being greedy and go with "quick" unless there is serious urgency. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Euri said: I still think that the probabilities of bogging -> imobilising are a bit exaggerated in the game - especially in dry dirt terrain. My initial post was not a singularity, rather a series of incidents occurring at an usual frequency which i felt I should discuss further I have not had a problem with bogging on dry terrain with the exception of driving through large craters. Did your tracks / wheels have damage? There is a cumulative damage effect on tracks & wheels from driving through low walls etc. 1 hour ago, Pericles said: There is a reason the developers gave us the option of "fast" and "quick" movement. Stop being greedy and go with "quick" unless there is serious urgency. IMO the speed of the vehicle has no effect on bogging/immobilization. My default vehicle speed is Fast. The vehicle AI will adjust speed on it's own when the vehicle enters certain terrain such as light woods or crosses (crushes) a low wall. After clearing the terrain/obstacle the vehicle resumes Fast. I did some experiments in August 2016 on my CMFB test map. I created 200 meter strips of various terrain (plowed field, mud, shallow ford, dirt etc.) and drove different tracked and wheeled vehicles (US and German) through the strips. I also used all 9 ground conditions from very dry to deep snow. I was trying to better understand the off road vehicle ratings as they are shown in the UI. While doing so I did not notice a correlation between speed and bogging. So I just floor it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 When I have a bogged vehicle, I'll cancel its movement orders. I don't know if it helps, but in my mind, it increases the odds of unbogging. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
niall78 Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 39 minutes ago, c3k said: When I have a bogged vehicle, I'll cancel its movement orders. I don't know if it helps, but in my mind, it increases the odds of unbogging. I play WEGO. Sometimes tanks bog and then immobilises before I get a chance to intervene but when a turn ends with a tank still just bogged I cancel its previous movement order and then order a direct reverse. I find this usually frees the tank. It could be part of my imagination and the odds are exactly the same no matter how the player intervenes between bogging and immobilised conditions but this seems to work well. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euri Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 3 hours ago, MOS:96B2P said: I have not had a problem with bogging on dry terrain with the exception of driving through large craters. Did your tracks / wheels have damage? There is a cumulative damage effect on tracks & wheels from driving through low walls etc. No. It was early in the mission (Bridgehead at Kharalyk) and the tank was spotless. And as I said it has happened in other similar occasions as well. The other times were in wheatfields. But this time was on the road! I can put it on video, but that is the case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 52 minutes ago, c3k said: When I have a bogged vehicle, I'll cancel its movement orders. I don't know if it helps, but in my mind, it increases the odds of unbogging. 6 minutes ago, niall78 said: I play WEGO. Sometimes tanks bog and then immobilises before I get a chance to intervene but when a turn ends with a tank still just bogged I cancel its previous movement order and then order a direct reverse. I find this usually frees the tank. It could be part of my imagination and the odds are exactly the same no matter how the player intervenes between bogging and immobilised conditions but this seems to work well. Hilarious. I rarely cancel move orders and just let the crew deal with the bogging. I find that usually works best Actually I am quite sure it makes no difference or at least as much difference as crossing my fingers and knocking on woods does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euri Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Pericles said: There is a reason the developers gave us the option of "fast" and "quick" movement. Stop being greedy and go with "quick" unless there is serious urgency. For everything there is a reason. Can you please elaborate what do you think is the reason for having a "fast" command? I could give a few reasons (for example prioritise advance to accurate targeting and countermeasures, move at fast pace etc). But I would never list as a reason to increase the probablilities of immobilisation on dry roads. In your mind, is the latter the reason for the fast command? That is what I understand from your post PS I gues by "reason" you mean "purpose" in the aristotelean sense (i.e telos) Edited November 29, 2016 by Euri 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 Back in the day we had huge discussions about what to do when your vehicle bogs. BF repeatedly assured us that it's just a probability issue and players cannot affect whether a vehicle unbogs or is immobilized (other than avoiding the terrain). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euri Posted November 29, 2016 Author Share Posted November 29, 2016 3 minutes ago, IanL said: it makes no difference or at least as much difference as crossing my fingers and knocking on woods does. knocking on wood works all the time! you should try it with no exceptions LOL 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 13 minutes ago, Euri said: No. It was early in the mission (Bridgehead at Kharalyk) and the tank was spotless. And as I said it has happened in other similar occasions as well. The other times were in wheatfields. But this time was on the road! I can put it on video, but that is the case. No need to put it on video my friend. I believe you. I just can't explain it. I had another idea so I opened Bridgehead at Kharalyk in the scenario editor. The weather is clear and the ground conditions are very dry. So my other idea was no help................ I wonder if the terrain under the road has an effect. A dirt road on top of mud tiles. As long as you stick to the road are you okay or maybe there is a higher chance to bog? I just did a quick experiment with a dirt road on top of mud tiles. I drove a BTR-82 (which has an off road rating of 3 yellow bars) up and down the road about 10 times. No problem. I know @Vanir Ausf B would probably say I need to drive it about 100 more times but I got bored after 10. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 LOL - yep get on those other 90 times man. Now do the same with you road on mud but be sloppy about your way points so the vehicle wonders on and off the road. I would guess it would get bogged sometimes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pericles Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 1 hour ago, Euri said: For everything there is a reason. Can you please elaborate what do you think is the reason for having a "fast" command? I could give a few reasons (for example prioritise advance to accurate targeting and countermeasures, move at fast pace etc). But I would never list as a reason to increase the probablilities of immobilisation on dry roads. In your mind, is the latter the reason for the fast command? That is what I understand from your post PS I gues by "reason" you mean "purpose" in the aristotelean sense (i.e telos) I have always interpreted the "fast" command as being included in the game so that the player can maximize movement speed at the expense of spotting ability and increased chance of bogging. However, after reading your reply and that of MOS, I recognize that my assumption could be incorrect. But I still think that the proposition that bogging likelihood is higher for "fast" compared to "quick" is a sound one, in part because it seems to reflect what would happen in reality (moving at maximum speed, not paying attention to intra-tile terrain anomalies) and because bogging likelihood is empirically higher for "quick" compared to "slow". Pending a controlled test of the proposition (a repeated experiment of the kind MOS divulged), the proposition remains contingently falsified. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 29 minutes ago, IanL said: <Snip> be sloppy about your way points so the vehicle wonders on and off the road. I would guess it would get bogged sometimes. Oh, I did. I took that BTR 4-wheeling (or 8-wheeling as it were) straight into the mud tiles, no road at all. Bogged about 24 meters in. Un-bogged itself, with no intervention from me, and made it out to grass terrain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOS:96B2P Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 2 hours ago, Euri said: <Snip> in the aristotelean sense (i.e telos) Wha wha what!?!? 41 minutes ago, Pericles said: <Snip> intra-tile terrain anomalies) and because bogging likelihood is empirically higher for "quick" compared to "slow". Pending a controlled test of the proposition (a repeated experiment of the kind MOS divulged), the proposition remains contingently falsified. Okay ................ this is starting to sound all Greek to me. And I think one of you accused me of having "contingently". And, while I did for a short while, back in the day the army doctor gave me a shot for it and it cleared up. Now if you want my continued participation in this conversation please use normal Midwestern English............ 2 hours ago, Euri said: Double post. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 (edited) I haven't tested it, but am pretty sure that when crossing fences, bushes (thanks that can be destroyed) etc that there is a higher probability of damage to the tracks at higher speeds. I always cross damageable terrain at SLOW. But, yes, once bogged, there is nothing you can do except wait for it to free itself or be permanently immobilized. For same reason I move vehicles SLOW when on "boggy" terrain. It would be very surprising if higher speed doesn't worsen the probability of bogging. Am pretty sure it does. Edited November 29, 2016 by Erwin 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pericles Posted November 29, 2016 Share Posted November 29, 2016 37 minutes ago, Erwin said: I haven't tested it, but am pretty sure that when crossing fences, bushes (thanks that can be destroyed) etc that there is a higher probability of damage to the tracks at higher speeds. I always cross damageable terrain at SLOW. But, yes, once bogged, there is nothing you can do except wait for it to free itself or be permanently immobilized. For same reason I move vehicles SLOW when on "boggy" terrain. It would be very surprising if higher speed doesn't worsen the probability of bogging. Am pretty sure it does. So it appears that Erwin and Pericles (Team 1) are up against MOS:96B2P and Euri (Team 2). Team 1 believes that bogging probability is higher for "fast" than for "quick". Team 2 believes that bogging probability is not higher for "fast" than for "quick". Perhaps we could resolve this via consensus. All those supporting Team 1, please write "1". All those for Team 2, write "2". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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