At least two types of SPWs not shooting consistently.

[MOS:96B2P]

About two weeks ago during a CMFB v1.01 PBEM I noticed my SPW 251/17s and SPW 251/9s were not consistently firing when given a Target or Target Briefly order.  This was especially noticeable when firing at a ATG on a bridge. 

I just now tested this in CMFB v1.02 and got the same results.  When given a Target order at the center of the bridge (Where a ATG was set up) the status block on the user interface would cycle through the normal loading, aiming, firing but the main gun would not visibly fire, there was no impact down range and the ammo count did not change.  I changed the aim points to the end of the bridge (first A/S off bridge).  Then the main guns fired every other time the UI read firing (so half the time indicated). 

When I moved the aim point for the SPW 251/17 into an open action square about 30 meters away from the bridge it seemed to fire normally.

When I moved the aim point for the SPW 251/9 into an open action spot about 30 meters away from the bridge it still would not always fire when the status block indicated it was firing.  It would skip about one out of three firings.  Again no muzzle blast, impact down range or ammo count change for skipped firing.

Has anyone else noticed this?  Before I jump to a conclusion that I found a bug I thought I should put this on the forum for discussion.  Maybe I’m doing something wrong or this is a known issue.  With the new patch I think BFC would have fixed it (if it is a bug) if they knew about it.  I did not test any other vehicles.

Below are some screenshots for the SPW 251/9.  The test was done on my test range so no damage or suppression was present.   

 

 

 

 

[Bulletpoint]

I've seen this happen many times. It's one of my biggest annoyances with the game, good as it is.

I think what happens is that the (basic, somewhat crude) logic that draws the targetting line looks at the target square and estimates that there will be line of fire - but then when the gunner actually tries to aim and fire, there's a separate and more fine-grained logic that kicks in and finds that something is actually just blocking LOF.

Then the gunner adjusts his aim just slightly and tries again. Sometimes, that will result in a shot being fired, but in some instances, the vehicle is just trapped in the aiming-firing-aiming-firing loop and you have to reposition it or choose another target.

If I am correct about these assumptions, I wish they would fix it somehow. Also if I am wrong I wish they would fix it.

Edited October 22, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[MOS:96B2P]

This seems similar to the "sometimes not able to area fire on buildings situation".  The difference is with a bridge you will get the Target line to the bridge and the status block will cycle through loading, aiming, firing.  But the end result is the same, no actual firing.  I tested a Panther tank and it had the same behavior as the SPWs when ordered to area Target the bridge.  However when vehicles spotted the ATG on the bridge they engaged it directly like happens when infantry are spotted in a building.

The problem with the SPW 251/9 is a little more involved.  When given an area Target at 187 meters (No bridge involved this time) across flat, open, no obstruction ground it cycled through firing eight times but only actually fired five times.     

Edited October 22, 2016 by MOS:96B2P

[Vanir Ausf B]

On dry or very dry ground conditions dust kicked up by cannon fire will temporarily block LOS.

[MOS:96B2P]

46 minutes ago, Vanir Ausf B said:

On dry or very dry ground conditions dust kicked up by cannon fire will temporarily block LOS.

The dust may make it difficult to get the initial Target line to stick.  In this case the Target line was already stuck (made before the shooting started) and the status block was cycling through the load, aim, fire sequence just the gun was not actually firing.  So I don't think it was the dust.

In the case of units refusing to actually area fire on the bridge I discovered that it happens when the firing unit is firing at or close to a 90^o  angle at the bridge.  If the firing unit is more or less in line with the bridge crossing it was able to area fire onto the bridge no problem.  So the bridge part is probably a rare occurrence. 

It looks like the SPW 251/9 has bigger problems.  Area Target it almost anywhere and it will not shoot all the rounds the status box is claiming it shot. 

[Bulletpoint]

If you already placed a (working) target order, the unit will keep shooting even if the target is obscured by the resulting smoke. But if you then cancel the firing order and try to re-do it, you will find that it's now blocked by smoke.

[snarre]

battle what im playing right now thous vehicles are worked normaly , im not notice any problems. 

[Erwin]

LOS has always been a huge issue with this game.  SO many examples of LOS issues in the game that make little sense in RL.  It is very much appreciated that BF continues to do patches and updates.  But, these updates tend to all address extremely minor issues that frankly are barely noticeable.  The huge elephantine problems like LOS henomena and non-ergonomic UI issues are ignored.  Am assuming that they would require a rewrite of code and so may not see these issues addressed until CM3 (Inshallah).

[Sublime]

Ugh dont jinx it. Every youtube video with allah akhbar or inshallah almost always ends badly for the arab speakers..

 

[hattori]

This isn't isolated to this game.  Last night I had a T72 in BS in a small group of trees try to open fire on building with it's main gun.  It cycled between aim-firing-aim-firing the entire turn, not one shell was fired.  I moved the tank up a meter or two next turn and plastered the building.  (I've also seen some crazy pathing logic if you put too far of a distance between movement waypoints)

I would agree that there seems to be slightly different logic from when you look if an area has line of sight ahead of time, and from when the vehicle is actually there trying to fire.

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, hattori said:

This isn't isolated to this game.  Last night I had a T72 in BS

They are all basically the same game. Same technology but with different gear.

[Bulletpoint]

One of the things that really bugs me is how orchards (each tree in the exact middle of its square) will block LOF extremely well, even though there should be plenty of space between the trees to see and shoot.

I believe it might be a quirk of the way the engine handles LOS centre-to-centre.

[Erwin]

We may have to wait for CM3 for the many irritating LOS issues to be addressed.  I just hope that they do get addressed as the LOS issues gets more and more irritating the more one plays.

[Sailor Malan2]

Alternatively accept you cant micromanage the game that much. It is the same as the MG team that can see the target but the actual MG can't, so you get 3 rifles firing instead of the HMG. the only real flaw is you have to notice its happening manually and move a little.

[MOS:96B2P]

4 hours ago, Sailor Malan2 said:

Alternatively accept you cant micromanage the game that much. It is the same as the MG team that can see the target but the actual MG can't, so you get 3 rifles firing instead of the HMG. the only real flaw is you have to notice its happening manually and move a little.

That's true and understandable.  I get that not every troop in a team may be able to have LOF at the same target all the time.  Just like RL.

This cycling thing where a vehicle cycles through the load, aim, fire sequence with the gun only actually shooting about 3 out of 4 times I'm afraid is an actual problem with the game.  The SPW 251/9 is one example of a vehicle with this cycle problem.  Area Target it almost anywhere and it will not shoot all the rounds the status box is claiming it shot. Also @hattori found a similar problem in CMBS with a T-72.  

Either the UI should not be reporting that the vehicle is shooting or the vehicle should actually be shooting.  IMO it should be shooting in the case of the SPW 251/9 since I had it area targeted over open terrain.   

[Erwin]

5 hours ago, Sailor Malan2 said:

Alternatively accept you cant micromanage the game that much. It is the same as the MG team that can see the target but the actual MG can't, so you get 3 rifles firing instead of the HMG. the only real flaw is you have to notice its happening manually and move a little.

The problem is that in most situations neither you nor the AI is able to get LOS by "moving a little".  The issue is particularly annoying with HMG's.  The 3rd ammo bearer can see the enemy and fire at him.  But, the HMG gunner cannot and he/the AI also cannot move itself, nor can you move it a couple of inches so that the HMG gets LOS. A large part of playing CM2 is fighting these sorts of issues. 

We can only hope that CM3 will finally address these sorts of important issues.

[Bulletpoint]

34 minutes ago, Erwin said:

A large part of playing CM2 is fighting these sorts of issues. 

As much as I love the game, I must say I agree with you.

[snarre]

still there is nou beter game than this 

 

[Muzzleflash1990]

I definitely echo this. Just played a bit and had an Abrams sit two full minutes with view of a BRDM, no tree between, it did not engage. On the second minute I gave it a target order, but still it didn't shoot. Also had a Javelin in view of a BMP-3, and it tried to engage for 6 minutes, kept shuffling around, aiming, eventually stop aiming, repeat; but it never fired. Visibility was actually fine, sometimes better from the shuffled to position (I have the saves for the Abrams and Javelin in case....).

And for some reason the Bradleys kept shooting over targets, or at the very top, occasionally hitting because of a round going "lower" than intentionally. This means almost all rounds went over, some hit the very top, and a rare round went lower than "target center". This happened against both infantry and vehicles in 11 out of 12 engagements played. None of the targets were hull down.

But yeah, there is nothing better. Alone "relative spotting" puts CM ahead of other games. Played Armored Brigade recently (which uses Borg spotting), and my dug-in infantry unit was spotted. Half the enemy force all turned their guns at the same time and wiped the unit out in 10 seconds.

Edited October 28, 2016 by Muzzleflash1990