Proof BMP-2s do fire ATGMs

[John Kettler]

Frankster65 did a full length movie back in February chronicling a Ukrainian Probe QB. In watching it, I noticed a BMP-2 using its ATGM to attack and destroy a Russian tank. My recollection is that this has been reported as not happening, or is that only for the nasty Kornet armed versions? You can see a BMP-2 doing its PTURS thing at 59:19.

Regards,

John Kettler

[MOS:96B2P]

Nice video.  Enjoyed watching it.  And yes I also saw the ATGM fire at 59:19. 

[Abdolmartin]

I have seen BMP-2s fire ATGMs but never BMP-2Ms. 

[John Kettler]

Abdolmartin,

That may very well be the issue Sublime was so rightly upset about, rather than the ordinary BMP-2s.

Regards,

John Kettler

[antaress73]

2 hours ago, John Kettler said:

Abdolmartin,

That may very well be the issue Sublime was so rightly upset about, rather than the ordinary BMP-2s.

Regards,

John Kettler

Sublime was upset about the BMP-2s not firing their Kornets. 

I played à few games lately and they do fire their kornets .. i've killed MANY Abrams that were previously damaged/degraded with arty and other assets. They need to be veteran, +1 leadership and  high motivation to fire them all .. their full loads at Abrams.

Edited July 26, 2016 by antaress73

[Kinophile]

1 hour ago, antaress73 said:

Sublime was upset about the BMP-2s not firing their Kornets. 

I played à few games lately and they do fire their kornets .. i've killed MANY Abrams that were previously damaged/degraded with arty and other assets. They need to be veteran, +1 leadership and  high motivation to fire them all .. their full loads at Abrams.

Definitely worth checking this out, if its their experience/leadership etc that affects if firing ATGMs.

Do you have any saves from those games you mentioned?

[Sublime]

Antaress73 you are the ONLY person IVE EVER seen say theyve seen 2ms fire kornets. Tests were done they never fired. VANIR mentionee BFC knows its an issue.

I like you antaress but proof or it didnt happen. And bonus points if you can produce more than one example which i believe you wont ve able to produce.

 

I also will mention Ive had Green Crack reg Vet and basically everything but conscript and elite 2ms. Leadership modifiers from neg 2 to pllus to everytjing in vetween. Same with morale and EW settings.  HAVE NEVER SEEN A 2M fire a kornet let alone salvo them. I dont think the community realizes the ubiquity of bmp2ms or their ability to be ubiquitous witb an atgm that can KO abrams would drastically rebalance the battlefield and make life a lot easier for the red.

 

 

AND  AGAIN YES ITS BMP2MS NOT FIRING ATGMS I CARE ABOUT. AND YES I ALWAYS PUT AN EXTRA CREWMAN IN AND HAVE TRIED WITHOUT. I CHALLENGE ANYONE TO GET A 2M TO FIRE ITS KORNET IN ANY CONDITIONS IT WONT HAPPEN ITS **MAJOR**  BUG. K(that sadly noone cares about though people endlessly willl complain we dont have 5 types of Russian truck or whether A10s are on the CAS roster. PROVE ME WRONG! PLEASE!

AGAIN ANTARESS I ALWAYS LIKED YOU BUT SORRY I SIMPLY DO NOT BELIEVE YOU THAT YOUR 2MS FIRED KORNETS. AND WITHOUT PROOF ILL CONTI UE TO ASSERT THEY DONT BECAUSE THERESS NO WAY YOURE THE ONLY BS PLAYER IN THE WORLD WHOSE 2MS ARE SHOOTING THEIR ATGMS

Edited July 26, 2016 by Sublime

[antaress73]

I dont know what i do but i'll provide you with many proofs. I'm not saying it's not a bug BTW. I feel lucky .. the Russians are very lethal when equipped with BMP-2Ms .

Edited July 26, 2016 by antaress73

[Haiduk]

You will be surprised, but in war in Donbas both sides very rare use ATGMs, mounted on BMP.  If light armor turns out itself face to face with tank, better to reverse as quick as possible, then to launch a missile and track it 20 seconds - for this time tank have all chances to destroy BMP. Though, in defense, mounted ATGMs can be useful, if BMP stays in deeep trench. Also during Debaltsevo battle we encountered with problem, that many BMP crews have poor training in ATGM launching. In some cases launchers were dismounting form BMP and using as portable AT-system. In such way our trops, for example, could repel one of many attack on Nikishyno village, when enemy tank controlled whole stright street and BMP can't advance from the home yard in order to not be destroyed. 

So, if BMPs don't launch AT-missiles, this is not big problem, even close to reality  

Edited July 26, 2016 by Haiduk

[Sublime]

24 minutes ago, antaress73 said:

I dont know what i do but i'll provide you with many proofs. I'm not saying it's not a bug BTW. I feel lucky .. the Russians are very lethal when equipped with BMP-2Ms .

Please do im eagerly awaiting any proof you have at all of 2ms firing their kornets. Im waiting.

[Sublime]

Close to reality in the current co flict haiduk idk how close to reality in a full on nato/ukr vs russia war. Plus technically russia doesnt field t90ams or bmp2ms. Thats irrelevamt however we play the game with what we have. If bmp 2ms fired kornets you have a missile capable of killing abrams on a mobile platform that doesnt  need a setup time. Yes bmps go up really easy. Still i think fixing bmp2ms firing would really make the blufors job a lot harder and the blufors absolute trump weapon is the abrams and the threats to the abram are tank cannon, kornets and khriz.  Missing kornets on bmp is a severe handicap esp sonce we cant pick anti armor cluster artillery and sense we cant buy abrams with out rwrs.

[antaress73]

2 hours ago, Sublime said:

Please do im eagerly awaiting any proof you have at all of 2ms firing their kornets. Im waiting.

I'll send you some stuff later , setup a Quick battle and take some screen shots/ videos  . Im not at home right now (playing with my Kids at the park) 

Edited July 26, 2016 by antaress73

[Kinophile]

2 hours ago, antaress73 said:

I'll send you some stuff later , setup a Quick battle and take some screen shots/ videos  . Im not at home right now (playing with my Kids at the park) 

Could you post publicly? Lots of interest from Rus players....

[Kinophile]

4 hours ago, Haiduk said:

You will be surprised, but in war in Donbas both sides very rare use ATGMs, mounted on BMP.  If light armor turns out itself face to face with tank, better to reverse as quick as possible, then to launch a missile and track it 20 seconds - for this time tank have all chances to destroy BMP. Though, in defense, mounted ATGMs can be useful, if BMP stays in deeep trench. Also during Debaltsevo battle we encountered with problem, that many BMP crews have poor training in ATGM launching. In some cases launchers were dismounting form BMP and using as portable AT-system. In such way our trops, for example, could repel one of many attack on Nikishyno village, when enemy tank controlled whole stright street and BMP can't advance from the home yard in order to not be destroyed. 

So, if BMPs don't launch AT-missiles, this is not big problem, even close to reality  

I just played a QB this afternoon where multiple layers of infantry ATGMS (13s & 14s) finally defeated an abrams platoon with supporting brads.(actually, @TheForwardObserver this was also where I used the artillery tactic of suppressing/separating the infantry from the MBTs. Worked perfectly.).

In a way it was easier to defend with the infantry ATGMs versus BMP-2 mounted as 1) there's lots more of them - extra angles,a nd somewhat disposable, 2) they're a MUCH smaller target (vital v US) and 3) I could build several static lines and maneuver my IFVs in between. Naturally this was RT. I had no MBTs. Just 1 company  of 2 reinforced (w/ ATGMs) BTR platoons, one Weapons platoon and a battalion ATGM platoon. 2 Mortar batteries, 4 SPGs. His armor pushed through my artillery screen but his brads took hits and some stalled. Infantry exited into a secondary, delayed barrage...

@Haiduk's point that an IFV v Tank duel is a bad idea (from the IFVs POV) is very true in CM also. I just dont bother v US. Even v UKR/RUS i'll prefer to back off and flank (except for vanilla T64s - they're blind as moles).

I was able to maneuver and hide far easier with infantry than BMPs. 

I've usually employed ATGM teams ono,. but I'm going to explore pairing off. 

@Haidukdo UKR ATGM teams work as snipers or teams of teams?

 

 

[Haiduk]

6 hours ago, kinophile said:

 

@Haidukdo UKR ATGM teams work as snipers or teams of teams?

Em... What do you means ?  Usually in defense one AT-4C of battalion AT-platoon is attaching to mech.platoon, which occupies own strong point.  

Edited July 27, 2016 by Haiduk

[Sublime]

Yeah RT being key phrase Kino. Unless its against a human it doesnt even count to me.

Also yes the atgm teams are smaller targets. However with my usual previous goto Russ setup Id have atgm teams.plus bmp2ms with kornets and t90s plus 2 khriz. Im missing a significant part of my anti armor and most dangerous part of my adversaries arsenal.

Antaress by all means I await eagerly. Dont send them to me post them publicly so everyone can see the only copy of BS that has 2ms firing

[Kinophile]

7 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Em... What do you means ?  Usually in defense one AT-4C of battalion AT-platoon is attaching to mech.platoon, which occupies own strong point.  

Ah k,  they're attached as a single  anti armor element to a platoon. 

I was wondering above if separate tank hunter squads (eg two ATGM teams and a sniper or two)  are ever used. It would seem to be the inherent tactic for the four team Batt level ATGM platoon. 

I've started experimenting with this tactic as MBT's are rarely alone, and one team trying to get the drop on an MBT can be difficult. Far too often a tank takes a hit/miss and either fires/retreats,  or a supporting IFVs moves up. Either way once my missile is away I find the break down and escape just takes too long, and it becomes man v machine (which never ends well). So a back up,  flanking ATGM team catches the tank/IFV while they're distracted with my first shooters.  This ties into my Perpendicular tactical rule. Always be flanking :-)

Of course,  in the Donbass I doubt there's enough missiles to concentrate anti-armor efforts like that. 

It worked last night though :-). I attached two additional AT-13 teams to each BTR platoon,  which gave me an extra 12 missiles and allowed me to set close range ambushes, while my Coy & Batt ATGMs went for the long range, ie layering my kill zone. This is v US. It would be overkill v RUS/UKR. 

Edited July 27, 2016 by kinophile

[Kinophile]

Interestingly I suspect this is fundamentally why Javelins are issued to US infantry rather than operating as separate ATGM platoons, in order to give first responders guaranteed tank killing ability. 

And following on from that, I'm finding that the best way to survive (maybe even win!)  v US is to mimic their force structure. Current in-game RUS structure is clumsy, unwieldy and brittle v fast moving US forces. 

This experience would suggest that for the Ukraine to even just structure their forces along US/NATO lines (without changing equipment) will yield noticeable tactical flexibility and strength.

@Haiduk I believe current NATO training aid is focussed on small unit tactics, rather than Battallion level reorganization? 

[hattori]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the real appeal of having the BMP-2Ms was that if they worked properly, they would launch both Kornets at the same time, which would hopefully defeat an Abram's APS?  I definitely have never seen that happen (too be fair, I rarely have the time to play BS these days)

[Kinophile]

Yes. But they don't. 

Untill we see a save game (and not anecdotal stories). 

I've a thread that shows 3Ms firing in a scenario, and I tested swapping them out for 2Ms but no joy. 

But I've never seen 2Ms fire either. 

[Haiduk]

4 hours ago, kinophile said:

Ah k,  they're attached as a single  anti armor element to a platoon. 

I was wondering above if separate tank hunter squads (eg two ATGM teams and a sniper or two)  are ever used. It would seem to be the inherent tactic for the four team Batt level ATGM platoon. 

 

This is all depend form situation. AT-platoon can be used in different ways - and as whole group, and shared among companies or even platoons. And I think, now battalion has more than four launchers. In the game was implemented peace time structure, but wartime structure can be other, I suppose as minimum 6 ATGM and 3 SPG-9. Also units usually use many supernumenary heavy infantry weapon. Thus typical platoon strongpoint on "zero" (i.e. forward positions) on danger direction can be equipped with 1 tank, 1 AT-4C or(and) 1 SPG-9, 1 ZU-23-2 or(and) 1 DShK, one sniper (or pair). But as I said this is all very individually. 

 

3 hours ago, kinophile said:

 I believe current NATO training aid is focussed on small unit tactics, rather than Battallion level reorganization? 

Yes. But and also C&C system inside units.  

Edited July 27, 2016 by Haiduk

[Sublime]

2ms do not fire and sorry no disrespecr to antaress but anything else is bs. There isnt after over a year out a shred or single bit of proof of 2ms firing and yes their kornets are their trump card. Its a bug that desperately needs to be corrected and needs more attention.

[sburke]

2 hours ago, Sublime said:

2ms do not fire and sorry no disrespecr to antaress but anything else is bs. There isnt after over a year out a shred or single bit of proof of 2ms firing and yes their kornets are their trump card. Its a bug that desperately needs to be corrected and needs more attention.

This has been repeatedly stated on this forum is fact so I decided, what the hell let me do a test run.  I put 4 Abrams 1 km away from 8 BMP 2 Ms  I gave the Abrams a tight cover arc.  I let er rip.

23 seconds in one BMP fired 2 Kornets one after the other.  Another fired a single Kornet, but by then the Abrams had shrouded themselves with smoke. 

I have the save, here you go.  There is no password. 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/k9so8d0inpqidkm/bmp 2 m 001.bts?dl=0

Is it still BS?  It took me all of 5 minutes to see that "elusive as a unicorn" double salvo.  How often they do so and if there are other issues I have no idea, but it is apparently a bit more complicated than "they never ever ever fire ever."

[antaress73]

ahem.. here we go: BMP-2ms killing abrams with Kornet:

 

 

sorry Sublime..

[Sublime]

Ok ill eat crow. I was wrong. Odd. Ill run tests tonight then. How is it that mine never fired in hundreds of games. Ask IanL or Nidan1 how many times theyve fought my 2Ms with no kornets firing.

I cannot get mine to fire no matter what I do. And what about the other people who cant get them to fire, and vanir saying its a known issue? Not saying your wrong but i got no problem puttn a test of mine together and showing you mine will not fire 

Antaress sorry for what? Im happy for you. I just dont understand 1. The tests that were done that showed the 2ms never fired and the problems a multitude including me have never seen.

Besides soft factors what specifically do you do diff if anything when using them to get them to fire?

Sburke you know ive been playing cm for a  long long time and therefore know how to play the game and the mechanics of the game. I cannot get the missiles to fire nor have ever seen them fire.

Id also like to point to Kinos (?) tests ran on all red atgm vehicles where he got em all to fire cept the 2m. Can anyone explain that then?  And for tonight when im home- what parameters do you guys want for my tests in case the bmp2ms fail?

Edited July 28, 2016 by Sublime