UKRAINE current sit rep ( Turkish involvement ? )

[VladimirTarasov]

I think you guys are looking at it wrongly... The west has its propaganda and the east has its propaganda. One may look at a situation in Syria through the western perspective and support anti-Assad regimes, One can look at the east's perspective and support Assad and his allies. Then comes the information war, Accusing each other of wrong information. The internet has a bunch of trolls, Who's to say Putler is sponsoring them?

[Rokko]

I was talking about a propaganda technique that seems pretty unique to Russia where by a concerted and appearently government funded (by what I have read and what given the scope of it makes sense) effort internet forums, newspaper comment sections, etc. are flooded by Russian talking-points, lies and half-truths trying to sow mistrust and trying to obfuscate issues. You can see this almost everywhere on English language websites but I have also seen it a lot on German speaking ones.

I'm not saying there isn't any "Western" propaganda per se, but to me it appears to work very differently and perhaps you could say more subtly. At least I am not aware of anything of the sort of "Putinbot" action going on on Russian websites by Western "agents", but then again, how would I know since I don't visit those since I don't know the language

[Wicky]

I think you guys are looking at it wrongly... The west has its propaganda ...

Russian submarine spying on Felixstowe > http://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/russian-submarine-felixstowe/

Police Apache helicopter blows up vicarage > http://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/police-apache-helicopter-blows-up-vicarage/

;-)

[AttorneyAtWar]

I think you guys are looking at it wrongly... The west has its propaganda and the east has its propaganda.

Can't argue with that while these guys exist.

http://www.foxnews.com/

[Kinophile]

My mother in law grew up under communism. She and I talked about the very visible disparity between the government propaganda and the actual day to day reality,  back then and now today with Putin's Ukrainian war, and my amazement that people will believe so much of the garbage being vomited up by RT and it's like. 

She said that it's not so much that the propagandists (then and now) must make cogent,  verifiable claims,  it's simply about volume -  they just pound you and pound you with relentless bull****,  it doesn't matter how crazy,  until inevitably some tiny part of your mind starts to believe,  or even just accept, the lies. Because that's all they need,  for you to start doubting your own thoughts,  and accepting theird as even possible. 

Propaganda is not sniper work,  it's artillery -  if it doesn't kill your independent thought,  even just the suppression of it is good enough. The objective is to stop you thinking clearly.

Thence,  any and all media outlets are just tubes to fire their mental excrement through, no matter  how poorly made. 

Scumbags, both generations. Russians deserve better. 

Edited March 12, 2016 by kinophile

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

The key difference between western vs eastern propaganda I'd contend is where the lies are parked.  Fox news strictly in terms of "reporting" isn't entirely inaccurate.  If George Bush had eaten a live baby, they'd have reported he ate a live baby vs contended that he was protecting it in his secret stomach pouch.  The propaganda comes from the commentary/pundit brigade of various "shows" in which all the various news agencies bend things to suit their audience. Fox wants the NASCAR block, so it's commentary type shows are going to talk about Obama's secret muslim communist upbringing, while still factually reporting during the "news" block.

This is partly because in the western media there is sort of a marketplace of ideas. There's news sources who have commentary that caters to more leftish people...but again on the other end of the stick they're not going to invent that George Bush eats babies and report it as fact.

And none of these news sources are directly controlled by government agencies outside of some very modest stuff (NO BOOBS DONT SWEAR sort of stuff).  

The difference then with Russia is the Russian media is wholly state owned and state directed.  It's commentary and news is directed by state organs to suit state needs.  And within those confines while the various western news companies may debate if nationalized healthcare is good/bad, they're not going invent FEMA deathcamps for the elderly and report it as reality.  The Russian media would however report that FEMA deathcamps existed if the "reality" that they existed suited the Russian government's needs.

It's not that there exists Fox News that we're all equal, it's that some portions of a free-market media will pander to certain audiences.  However grossly inaccurate stuff loses viewers as it's pretty easy to look on NBC and see that George Bush IS actually eating babies no matter how hard Fox news denies it.

Which gets to the heart of why it's silly to compare the two.  Yeah, there's bull feces stories from Western Media, and governments try to shape a generally independent media's stories through various means (report how great this is and I'll let you actually get close to the event sort of things).  But the Russian media exists solely to "sell" information the Russian government deems fit/desirable that its people consume.  And that lack of separation makes it entirely untrustworthy vs "trust with verification" 

[Battlefront.com]

I think you guys are looking at it wrongly... The west has its propaganda and the east has its propaganda.

Putin has expended a ton of money and energy continuing the Soviet legacy of convincing people that whatever bad things the Soviet/Russian state does, everybody else is either just as bad or worse.  That isn't something that works too well when logic and facts are applied.

One may look at a situation in Syria through the western perspective and support anti-Assad regimes, One can look at the east's perspective and support Assad and his allies. Then comes the information war, Accusing each other of wrong information.

Yes, here I agree.  In the West we view using cluster bombs on civilian neighborhoods and repeatedly deliberately targeting hospitals, not to mention directly supporting a regime that uses starvation and mass murder as being very bad things which are counter productive and against international law.  Russia, on the other hand paints its intervention in Syria as being a campaign of precision attacks against only terrorists and in support of the "legitimate" ruler of Syria.  So yes, one can definitely see that there are different perspectives on things like the war in Syria.  Or Ukraine.  Or pretty much everything else.

The internet has a bunch of trolls, Who's to say Putler is sponsoring them?

Hmmm... the Russian and international journalists who have reported on the "troll farm" in St. Petersburg?  The one that is staffed by people paid by the Russian state to post total trash all day long?  The one where people weren't paid after doing work and they complained to journalists, along with giving details about what they did?  The one where Russian journalists went in under cover to get the inner details about the working conditions, management structure, methodology, and how much people get paid to do what they are instructed to do?

Anybody who uses the Internet can easily see a distinct pattern of behavior from Putinbots separate from all other forms of trolling (except about women's genitalia.  That's about the only other predictable idiocy I can compare it to).  Therefore, either Russia has an abnormal number of insane people posting massive quantities more crazy stuff compared to other countries or they are relatively sane people posting trash to earn some money.  I think of the two possibilities you would be more comfortable with the fake insanity vs. actual insanity.

Plus, we see the same exact false information from Russian state controlled media.  Patterns are important, and Russia is if nothing else extremely consistent when it comes to messaging.

Steve

Edited March 12, 2016 by Battlefront.com

[Battlefront.com]

Russian submarine spying on Felixstowe > http://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/russian-submarine-felixstowe/

Police Apache helicopter blows up vicarage > http://www.suffolkgazette.com/news/police-apache-helicopter-blows-up-vicarage/

 

;-)

The real shame is when Western media thinks fake stories on a website that is openly "satirical" gets picked up as real.  Though in this case it was Sky News which is, according to many, a satirical news site as well:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/aliciamelvillesmith/sky-news-read-out-a-fake-news-story-about-david-bowie

Steve

[Battlefront.com]

She said that it's not so much that the propagandists (then and now) must make cogent,  verifiable claims,  it's simply about volume -  they just pound you and pound you with relentless bull****,  it doesn't matter how crazy,  until inevitably some tiny part of your mind starts to believe,  or even just accept, the lies. Because that's all they need,  for you to start doubting your own thoughts,  and accepting theird as even possible. 

The strategy is simple.  Throw 100 pieces of information at someone every day, all of which is carefully filtered to fit a message and none of it is done with truth in mind.  Make a certain amount of the pieces of information obviously fake, make some them almost truthful, and make another batch somewhere inbetween.  People know that they are being lied to so they look for the lies.  They find the huge number of obvious fake information and they feel good about their analytical skills.  They then sort through the inbetween group, discarding some completely, partially believing others, and fully believing some.  The brain is tired by this point and accepts the rest as truthful, in part because the person doesn't believe EVERYTHING they are seeing is in some way falsified.  It is an extremely effective way of controlling people's minds even when they are exposed to outside information.

This is why volume and repetition are both important to controlling people's minds.  Volume wouldn't do it alone, repetition wouldn't either.

Scumbags, both generations. Russians deserve better. 

Yup, they do.  And if they want to they can.  There's far more Russians pushed down into the mud than oligarchs/criminals doing the pushing.  1992 proved that.

Steve

[kraze]

I think you guys are looking at it wrongly... The west has its propaganda and the east has its propaganda. One may look at a situation in Syria through the western perspective and support anti-Assad regimes, One can look at the east's perspective and support Assad and his allies. Then comes the information war, Accusing each other of wrong information. The internet has a bunch of trolls, Who's to say Putler is sponsoring them?

Well, Russia has been caught outright lying about not bombing non-ISIS targets (including civilian buildings) multiple times for one (despite all the actual video evidence of those buildings bombed). Western media has yet to mess up so hard as to post pre-bombing satellite images as a "proof" of some hospital not being hit. Then there is state-funded Olgino troll factory which anyone can google info on.

Western media level of "propaganda" is nowhere near lies being the national policy of Russia on the highest level. Putin denying the invasion of russian troops in Donbass all while his own Russia Today is showing brand new T72B3 and Vystrels attacking Debaltsevo is one example among dozens.

Edited March 12, 2016 by kraze

[VladimirTarasov]

 

Yes, here I agree.  In the West we view using cluster bombs on civilian neighborhoods and repeatedly deliberately targeting hospitals, not to mention directly supporting a regime that uses starvation and mass murder as being very bad things which are counter productive and against international law.  Russia, on the other hand paints its intervention in Syria as being a campaign of precision attacks against only terrorists and in support of the "legitimate" ruler of Syria.  So yes, one can definitely see that there are different perspectives on things like the war in Syria.  Or Ukraine.  Or pretty much everything else.

Jesus, Steve... A total ignoring of facts provided by the Syrian government, Or the people of Donetsk and Luhansk. But anyways I'm not interested in another argument  I have some scenarios to fight out against the Ukrainians.

[Battlefront.com]

 

Jesus, Steve... A total ignoring of facts provided by the Syrian government, Or the people of Donetsk and Luhansk. But anyways I'm not interested in another argument  I have some scenarios to fight out against the Ukrainians.

Here's the difference.... I ignore statements made by two ruthless dictatorships with long established track records of lying and mass murder, you ignore evidence from videos/pictures, aid organizations, and independent media showing that said dictatorships are continuing their long established track records of lying and mass murdering.  So it is true we are both ignoring things.  On that point we can definitely agree.

Steve

[LukeFF]

Can't argue with that while these guys exist.

http://www.foxnews.com/

Add news sources like CNN and MSNBC to that list, and you have a point. All of them have a slant, to one extent or the other.

Edited March 14, 2016 by LukeFF

[Battlefront.com]

All media, since the dawn of time, has had slants and mixed track records of telling the truth.  Some are more obvious than others, some are more narrow in their agenda than others.  The more important point is that some are more prolific in their distortions.  FOX has consistently scored lower than other US mass media companies in terms of accuracy of statements made on the air.  Partly because FOX has a large amount of its airtime dedicated to what amounts to OpEd presentations instead of news, which is a way it uses to blur the distinction between opinion and fact.  Here's just one organization tracking the relative accuracy of the various news organizations and, like many others over the years, FOX leads the way in statements which are not truthful to some degree or another:

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/article/2014/jul/01/introducing-scorecards-tv-networks/

To keep this somewhat on topic, this is the sort of thing that Russian media practices.  Over the past 10 years there's been a concerted effort to make Russia's news outlets appear, superficially, to be equals to Western news presentations.  Russia Today, for example, looks identical to Deutsche Welle, BBC, CNN, etc.  Not just in terms of the graphics, studio, presenters, etc. but also in terms of format and tone of presentation.  One feels just as "at home" watching Russia Today as watching MSNBC in terms of familiarity.  However, that's where the similarity ends.

Russia Today is 100% pure propaganda outlet for the Russian Federation.  It serves no master other than the state.  It produces messages which are inline with state policy, it avoids topics which run contrary to state interests.  If it must address things which are negative towards the state (like Russia's declining economy), then it is done in a way which mitigates responsibility of the state in one of several ways (shifting blame to another entity, downplaying the seriousness/severity, or making it seem "normal" or worse elsewhere).

The latter part is what Russian mainstream media has had the most success with within the Russian population, as far as I can tell.  Informed Russians know that its media lies on a regular basis since they consistently say this in interviews and polls.  However, they quickly defend their own media by saying "all other media lies just as much for the same reasons".  That is factually untrue, however they do believe it because the Russian state has cleverly fostered that perception over many years.  Russians know their own media lies because they can compare it against what they know and see that the media isn't reflecting it.  So when they see the same type of presentation by Western media they presume that CBS, BBC, NPR, Reuters, etc. are distorting/lying to the same extent as Russian media.  Since they lack the first hand knowledge of what is really going on in the West, they lack the ability to see that they are wrong.  This bad logic and uniformed analysis is actively encouraged by the Russian state via it's troll farms, politicians, and media.

To bring this back around full circle, there is not much different between FOX News and Russia Today in terms of deliberately distorting the truth and then saying "hey, everybody does it".  While that might be true to some extent, the real truth is "not all media distorts or lies to push an agenda to an equal degree".  Factually speaking, FOX News distorts to a far greater extent than any other major US news organization and does so on a regular, consistent basis in order to push a specific political/cultural agenda just as Russia Today does.  Both FOX and Russia Today are, therefore, tools to control and manipulate people rather than inform and empower them.  The major difference in practice is FOX has a degree of accountability that forces it to be more truthful than it would probably otherwise be and the people in the West have easier access to media which is more truthful.  Russia Today has absolutely zero accountability and Russians are deliberately deprived of more truthful sources of information.

How is this relevant to Black Sea?  Well, not very   What it does show is how otherwise intelligent, educated people can come up with some pretty off-the-wall factually incorrect stuff in the discussions we have here.

Steve

[Buzz]

*Original question* "Can we get Turkish militant and burning tyres addons for CMBS?"

I suspect talented and interested Mod Artists can create this. I would think this would best be served as a separate game or possibly a CMSF2 module. Situations have changed a lot since 2007. There is a boat load of CM Module material more closely matched to events in CMBS, IMO. 

Buzz