borg Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 If you Ain't playing CMRT - then it's time to see this https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnNmfyY_ccRHl0yAJZy3r5Nfq2-Xr22di Hope you Red Fans & OstFront lovers like this. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Thanks for posting. It's very glossy and well done but I swtiched off after watching the first wee bit of the Kursk episode when they started banging on about Tigers, Panthers and Elefants. Trotting out the same old worn cliches about the battle. I had hoped perhaps a more up to date take on this seminal battle. But nah. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 You are already on episode 9 ?! I just started watching this from the beginning. Not expecting to learn much except - you must admit the bells & whistles are nicely presented for a generic audience :-) Joking apart - I wish to learn / are there gross errors in that programme ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 You are already on episode 9 ?! I just started watching this from the beginning. Not expecting to learn much except - you must admit the bells & whistles are nicely presented for a generic audience :-) Joking apart - I wish to learn / are there gross errors in that programme ? I just watched the Kursk episode out of curiosity. I can't comment about the other episodes. TBH it's entertaining, very visual and aimed at a wider audience. Â I had thought, naively, that the old myths about Kursk might, given the extensive research about this action, might have forced a change of narrative. As I said I can't comment about the other episodes as I've not seen them, but if the Kursk one is anything to go by then I would not hold out much hope for it's historical accuracy. At least it'll look nice! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bootie Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Yeah it is very polished but like George says ... the polish is the only new take on what has went before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Thanks GeorgeMC ! :-) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 (edited) "The antitank ditches had to be collapsed by accurate dive bomber attacks before the tanks could pass". Â No. Â Just... no. Â Â Or, the part about new Russian anti-tank bomblets letting each Sturmovik "devastate" a "whole column of armor" 200 meters long. Got any actual dead tanks killed by the things? Â One end of the battle to the other? Â Anyone? Â Anyone? Â Here is a piece of equipment I can look up in a manual. Â Here is an important muckety muck giving his opinions before he knows anything. Â Here is footage of a soldier digging in. Â Here is made up silliness about shooting the guns off tanks. Â Just... Â no. Edited August 27, 2015 by JasonC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Boss Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 "they [soviet forces] were pursued so closely by the enemy that is was impossibly to lay anti tank mines.." They had several months prior to the battle for that.  "...But the 2nd SS panzer corps had already reached Prokhorovka..." Nope etc. etc etc.  Putins controlled media has been hard working  to adjust history once again to the old soviet style. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Hmm. I hope I didn't stir any hot plates here not my intention whatsoever. Hey, the phrase "history is written by the victorious" - perhaps it's being practiced 'literally!' 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 i will admit however the series does cover areas NO documentary ever has in the Ost, the Kuban bridgehead for example. Also a russian speaker posted recemtly the english translated version seems to have a lot of things cut out various maps interviews with historians vets etc. But ya. tv documentaries and grogs dont mix. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) The PTAB stuff persuaded me to look something up. The Russians dropped 9.4 million of the things from mid 1943 to May 1945. Armor kills with them, um. Still looking for any evidence of --- any. Initial pilot claims were one kill per 80 dropped. Later that rose to claiming one per 25, half full tanks, half other vehicles. That neatly covers every AFV ever fielded by Germany - four times over. Meanwhile, actual air to ground armor kills with anything... Still need to find any evidence for them, in any numbers. Kursk specifically, one Elephant and a merely probable on a handful of Panthers - the former by igniting a fuel cell fire incidentally - for 100,000 dropped. Likely other types in proportion, to be fair. Meaning a max upside of perhaps 1% German armor losses. Edited August 28, 2015 by JasonC 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 The PTAB stuff persuaded me to look something up. The Russians dropped 9.4 million of the things from mid 1943 to May 1945. Armor kills with them, um. Still looking for any evidence of --- any.  58 GShAP claimed 10 German tanks knocked out with PTABs on 5 July. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Claims aren't kills. Kind of the entire point. Russian air to ground kill claims destroyed the entire German army several times over, which must be why their ground forces had such an easy time of it and just walked to Germany without losing a nail... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 You lost me here.. PTABs ? GShAP ? Speaking of Soviet Storm - have any guys here watched enemy at the gates ? I'm not after historical accuracy here.. Just as a film. Kind of like Fury was for the western theatre. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Combatintman Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 PTAB - an air delivered munition, GShAP a Guards Assault Aviation Regiment. Enemy at the Gates - not seen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Air force claims have always been on the high side. In Desert Storm 91, when visibility was good (i.e desert) and weapons a lot more precise than WW2. Coalition Air Forces initially claimed to have knocked out 50% of the enemy AFVs before the ground offensive started, postwar assessments found overclaims of AFV kills were very high and the vast majority of Iraqi AFVs had been destroyed by ground forces during the offensive. In Falaise 44, where German armour was caught in the open, stuck on roads and unable to maneuver, post battle assessment found the vast majority of abandoned tanks had been destroyed by their own crew when they ran out of gas or became stuck in traffic jams. Edited August 28, 2015 by Sgt Joch 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 good war films i recommend das bootband stalingrad same film makers as das boot way better thane enemy at the gates and same battle 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 Thanks sublime !! Will surely watch it ! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 The 1993 film ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 What a PTAB strike looks like in reality, as opposed to flight simulators and officer fantasies of uniform blanket destruction - https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H_huv58MGYE For those who don't know what we are talking about, in mid 1943 the Russians startec using small antitank bombs, about 5 pounds each, with small shaped charge warheads capable of penetrating about 70mm of armor, as an air to ground munition for IL-2 attack aircraft. A single IL-2 carried 192 of then in its internal bomb racks. The idea was to raise the chance of any kind of hit on tanks and vehicles by dropping just enough to hurt one, then dropping more of them hoping that a few would hit. They proceeded to make extreme claims about their effectiveness, like destorying 10 to 20 vehicles with each squadron strike. Which if remotely true would have destroyed German AFVs as fast as IL-2s conducted sorties. Problem - the Russians made and fielded as many IL-2s as the Germans fielded tanks against them, they flew 15-25 missions each before their loss, and German tanks aren't dead that many times over. Or at all, really, from the air. The video above shows why. They are very inaccurate and their pattern coverage isn't exactly modern cluster bomb stuff... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andreas3 Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 The 1993 film ? He must be speaking of the 1993 film by Joseph Vilsmaier, that film together with Das Boot are claimed by many to be the best war filmes ever made, me included. Start out with Stalingrad and then see if you can find the blu-ray version of the Directors Cut of Das Boot, you will not regret it! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
borg Posted August 28, 2015 Author Share Posted August 28, 2015 Cool ! I'll make sure So - the 2013 film called Stalingrad by Fedor Bondarchuk... Was that a remake ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 no completely different the Stalingrad was from the 90s and made by Germans and very realistic and acclaimed by grogs. The same people who made Das Boot. If you look in war movie scene thread or someting in general discussion forum you'll see scenes from Das Boot and one from Stalingrad. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 yes the 1993 film 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted August 28, 2015 Share Posted August 28, 2015 Cross of Iron - one of my favourite WWII Ost Front films oh that an the original Stalingrad (best watch it in the original German with sub titles though - the dubbed voices were a bit rubbish I thought). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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