user1000 Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) How come there is virtually nothing out there about the US landing in the Southern France area? Were there not many battles?? How come no one mentions this in any documentaries? Were German forces just in the north and central area? Baffled. Edited July 31, 2015 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Operation Dragoon could be best characterized as a series of small engagements between scattered German forces (of sometimes dubious quality) and fairly overwhelming, often veteran allied units. While it was likely very important, and frequently quite nasty to the dogface at the front, on a higher operational to strategic level there were not many large battles. In terms of wargaming it, it looks similar to lots of the small platoon-company level fights that make up the post-Operation Cobra breakout scenarios. Equipment for the Germans will be about same as Normandy, only less of it, and manned often by less capable soldiers. US forces largely equipped on par with early Normandy equipment (no M4A1 76s, no M4A3s, more M8s less M7s) with a few well blooded US units straight from Italy. Also of note was fairly sizable French insurgent activity as the writing was on the wall for Germany in France, and a lot of previously fence sitting folks came out of the woodwork to arms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rinaldi Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 How come there is virtually nothing out there about the US landing in the Southern France area? Were there not many battles?? How come no one mentions this in any documentaries? Were German forces just in the north and central area? Baffled. There was one battle of note; an action at Montliemar, which essentially drove the German forces into the Vosges. There's little in the way of documentaries, but there is at least one H2H scenario made; eponymously named 'H2H Montliemar.' Forces in the Dragoon sector were a hodge-podge of Axis infantry units (including cannibalized Luftwaffe formations) and the 11.Panzer Division. Any histories that focus on the 36th US Infantry Division will detail Dragoon in depth, as the Texans were instrumental in cutting the Axis line of retreat at Montliemar. They essentially prevented the Dragoon defense forces from pushing north to link up with the main German body that was in retreat at that time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivefivesix Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Operation Dragoon occurred about 2 months after Overlord in the middle of August 1944. By that time, the Battle of Normandy was wrapping up - it coincided closely with the Falaise pocket closing up. Paris was liberated about 10 days later. The U.S. and French army that landed in Southern France fought against a German army group that mostly implemented a fighting withdrawal / delaying actions, but few if any strong defensive stands were ever held. Dragoon is probably overshadowed by the much heavier fighting that took place in Normandy. Historically, by that time in the war, Germany could not muster and meaningful resistance to the Allies in France. Strategically a very important operation (the "anvil" to Overlords "hammer"), although not many decisive battles took place. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted July 31, 2015 Author Share Posted July 31, 2015 (edited) Looking at a map I'm guessing there couldn't have been much German armor or infantry involved to flee. They would end up in Switzerland or Northern Italy if they went east.. Edited July 31, 2015 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fivefivesix Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 The Germans only had 1 (understrength) tank division in southern France at the time. Most of the German infantry involved was non-motorized and poorly equipped. The Eastern front (mostly) and Normandy had diverted the majority of supply of equipment and reinforcement. A large part of the German army group was ultimately cut off and destroyed / surrendered - the divisions that escaped went through the Vosges Mountains 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted July 31, 2015 Share Posted July 31, 2015 Well, hopefully we will get some Vosges action when Bulge is released. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 BBC reporter Wynford Vaughan-Thomas called it the "Champagne campaign", whether that is a true reflection of it's ease, or his own drinking habits I'm not sure. It is certainly true that the Germans weakened their forces in the south quite a bit between June and August. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I can't remember exactly when I bought Beyond Overlord. But, the game came with an "Additional CD". There were quite a few battles set in southern France. One of the maps in particular looked really good, hillsides covered in vineyards etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 I believe part of the reason he named it the Champagne Campaign was the region of fighting with its famous vineyards and also the relative ease and Allied success compared to previous battles/operations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coop_71 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 The Free French had some urban fighting, too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted August 1, 2015 Share Posted August 1, 2015 Wasn't southern France where Audie Murphy stood on a knocked out US tank and manned a .50 against overwhelming odds? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) The Free French had some urban fighting, too. Agreed. It was the Free France so there may have been a lot of French resistance as well more than anything the All French Assault Force with US equipment . Edited August 1, 2015 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted August 1, 2015 Author Share Posted August 1, 2015 (edited) Wasn't southern France where Audie Murphy stood on a knocked out US tank and manned a .50 against overwhelming odds? Nope Wiki says it was near Colmar. Although he did see action in Montélimar. also found this Edited August 1, 2015 by user1000 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Wasn't southern France where Audie Murphy stood on a knocked out US tank and manned a .50 against overwhelming odds? The odd thing about the nature of war is the actual intensity of the conflict depends widely on who you are and where you are on the battle field. On a whole in Southern France the German resistance was fairly weak and a great number of German units simply either gave up, or packed whatever they could loot and booked for the Fatherland. However that wider picture is often entirely irrelevant if at your particular road junction this particular German platoon has decided to make a stand and your particular squad is pinned down by their machine guns. So it's entirely possible to have a campaign widely characterized as never seeing a German from the front, while having engagements that rival anything that small collection of soldiers at that nexus in time and space will ever see again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barkhorn1x Posted August 2, 2015 Share Posted August 2, 2015 Two comments: - The book "Eisenhower's Lieutenants" has a very good Operation Dragoon chapter (and is a fine operational level history of the NW Europe campaign as a whole). - The 11th Panzer was a very good outfit ably commanded by von Wietersheim and gave a very good account of iteself - aided by favorable terrain - in a series of holding actions as it retreated up the Moselle valley. Yes the US forces were overwhelming but the terrain served to channel the advance onto some key - and easily defended - main roads. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted August 3, 2015 Author Share Posted August 3, 2015 The video said the allies had some casualties from the gliders. The resistance was spotty, did they REALLY need glider landings... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 3, 2015 Share Posted August 3, 2015 The odd thing about the nature of war is the actual intensity of the conflict depends widely on who you are and where you are on the battle field. On a whole in Southern France the German resistance was fairly weak and a great number of German units simply either gave up, or packed whatever they could loot and booked for the Fatherland. However that wider picture is often entirely irrelevant if at your particular road junction this particular German platoon has decided to make a stand and your particular squad is pinned down by their machine guns. So it's entirely possible to have a campaign widely characterized as never seeing a German from the front, while having engagements that rival anything that small collection of soldiers at that nexus in time and space will ever see again. This. Casualties being 'light' dont mean squat if you.re one of them. And we.re talking a strategic/operational level for Dragoon and beyond. Doesnt mean there were vicious firefights quite a bit. Also later in the Colmar Pocket and Vosges things got bad. I remember reading an account fron Winkelreid (where is he btw?) about US troops using 155mm long toms in direct fire role to stop a German attack that was proving successful.. until that point. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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