PARA Drops

[kevinkin]

I own RT, FI and SF and like to design. I have been playing with a way to simulate para drops where the starting position of troops is scattered. In the games I have, there is no mechanism for this other

than the designer's creativity. But I'll ask since the 82nd and 101 played such a big role in Normandy. How has this been handled - if at all - by the designers in the Normandy community?

Thanks Guys.

Kevin

[A Canadian Cat]

Well simulating para drops directly is not part of the game.  See the discussion here: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/104003-pathfinders/. I took a shot at a scenario: http://community.battlefront.com/topic/104496-pathfinder-mission-areal-photos-of-sicily/ but the drop is definitely not random.

 

See if any of that helps.

[kohlenklau]

AI controlled paratroopers can be sprinkled around by the 5 AI plans but who wants AI paratroopers I guess...

 

Player controlled paratroopers can get some start position variety by tucking the scenario into a mini-campaign.

Basically use the first battle of the campaign to branch off to A or B and you then have 2 start position versions of the same scenario.

Random coin toss can be the first battle with heads is high winds or whatever. tails is not so bad of winds and make the dispersion greater with the A scenario.

You could even do another branch off from those 2 before you fight. Some other factor such as enemy AA fire. So, you'd have 4 different start positions for the same scenario. The coin toss battle takes 2 minutes so the player is not put off with any lengthy waiting.

 

I am now experimenting with a "final approach" scenario for a CMFI Operation Hercules Campaign. It allows AI AA units to engage your transport aircraft and cause losses. Then in the follow on scenario that starts on the drop zone, the missing units from the core file are your random holes in the plan.

[womble]

You could get some pretty wild variations by having lots of different reinforcement groups with random arrival times, arriving at the edge of the map from different directions, representing the scattered elements trying to regroup with a central element. With arrival times that could exceed the scenario time limit, you wouldn't know what, if anything, was going to arrive.

[A Canadian Cat]

Arrival time variation could be interesting.  Even if it was over the fist 15min of the scenario you still would get a random feeling to your force each time you played even though in the end they all might make it.

[kevinkin]

I have a few battles (company sized at night) that use that AI set-up sprinkle method. It does provide random start locations for the AI. I will try the reinforcement method for non QB maps. Given the storied history of the airborne I think there would be interest is these types of fights. Gee, up on my list is Marshall's Night Drop. We long for replayable scenarios especially on great maps. Although, random start points may produce a wide range of results, the battles I have toyed with are fast to play and pretty interesting.

Kevin

[Pak40]

You could get some pretty wild variations by having lots of different reinforcement groups with random arrival times, arriving at the edge of the map from different directions, representing the scattered elements trying to regroup with a central element. With arrival times that could exceed the scenario time limit, you wouldn't know what, if anything, was going to arrive.

 

Yes, and you don't have to confine the units to arrive in the middle of the map. You can make them arrive wherever, simulating drops right on the map. If you couple this technique with completely random AI plans then you have what seek.

[womble]

Yes, and you don't have to confine the units to arrive in the middle of the map. You can make them arrive wherever, simulating drops right on the map. If you couple this technique with completely random AI plans then you have what seek.

I was thinking that paras arriving in the area of a CM map would probably arrive pretty much at about the same time, so any new arrivals would have had to have dropped "off map" and appear at the edge.

[JonS]

I was thinking that paras arriving in the area of a CM map would probably arrive pretty much at about the same time ...

For an upcoming scenario, I did quite a bit of research into the way Allied paradrops were scheduled and organised in 1944. Taking into account the limitations of the editor, I decided that the arrival location was essentially fixed, but the arrival timing can be messed about with, and organisation of the arriving forces could be heavily degraded. What I came up with was splitting a battalion drop into four company 'waves' (three rifle companies and one HQ/spt wave), each nominally 5 minutes apart. The later waves are - IIRC - more like 10 mins apart (to reflect mounting friction in the air), and all the waves are variable_5. I also used a fifth 'wave' of stragglers.

 

Don't forget to factor in how fast the a/c is traveling, and how quickly men can get out the door. The guys do not arrive in a nice compact blob. Typically, each a/c platoon-stick would be split into teams and stretched out over 3-500m along the flightline, with just a little bit of lateral dispersion. That, in turn, means that the LZ on your map has to be really freaking large. Also, the alignment of the various platoon sticks probably shouldn't all be perfectly parallel, but they should all conform to roughly the same approach and departure route (say, up to about +/-15° in orientation? A bit more for the Brits whose a/c flew individually within the stream, a bit less for the US who flew in formations. A bit more by night, a bit less by day).

 

Edit: oh, and don't forget the detachment of pathfinders who'll arrive 10-15 minutes before the first wave to set up the Eureka beacons and visual markers ...

Edit2: the various 3-500m strings of dropped troops within each wave should NOT https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyaLZHiJJnE. 'Why' is left as an exercise for the reader

Edit3: each of the strings of dropped troops within each wave should be separated laterally by about 100m. The 'Why' is basically the same as in Edit2 above

Edited April 17, 2015 by JonS

[A Canadian Cat]

Oh that is a good idea too.  So you could have a core force made up of reinforcements with fixed locations and random arrival times of 0 - 5 min and then have entry points where the guys dropped further away arrive to join in.  And those guys you can set to have arrival times that exceed the scenario length.  That way you get an unknown force that arrives in time to be useful the make up and order will change each time you play.

 

Sounds interesting.

[kohlenklau]

Operation Varsity 17th Airborne!!!

[Bud Backer]

I like JonS' solution to the problem. I really would not have thought of making arrival times variable rather than location. Each has their advantages, but given the limitations of the system (which honestly is a pretty good system, after all) it's a logical and effective solution. 

[kevinkin]

I agree (and thanks for the ideas). Given what is known technically about WWII US drops and the power of the editor, good airborne simulations are not out of reach. Map size will have to be large and scenario length set to allow for concentration, skirmishes and the final push toward the main objective. I believe the editor will allow for the creation of units that are weakened due to the jump. "Broken bones", "strained knees", units way way off course. Based on the JonS post, my test battles are pretty rudimentary. But the good news is they are fun. The feeling of hide - and - seek in the dark is there and the CM enivroment shines. For example, I have set AI units on a patrol around the map trying to find the airborne enemy and you never can tell what and when you will run into each time it's played.

Now where is the copy of "Night Drop".

Kevin

[Pak40]

Yes, and you don't have to confine the units to arrive in the middle of the map. You can make them arrive wherever, simulating drops right on the map. If you couple this technique with completely random AI plans then you have what seek.

 

Sorry, I meant to say that you don't have to confine units to arrive on the edge of a map.

 

I was thinking that paras arriving in the area of a CM map would probably arrive pretty much at about the same time, so any new arrivals would have had to have dropped "off map" and appear at the edge.

 

Well, the para drops went on for 15-30 minutes typically so some would definitely arrive later. There are many cases where paras landed on hot drop zones, so if a designer wanted to do this then it's not out of the realm of reality.

 

Also, I was more thinking of a night time Normandy scenario where para "reinforcements" would suddenly appear in the middle of the map because it would simulate a small group of 3-4 troopers that find each other in the dark and form an an ad-hoc unit.

[John Kettler]

kevinkin,

 

You may find what I had to say over on CMFI Maps and Mods to be of interest. In the part (#58?) with the flaming turquoise highlight, I present the figures on the best the FJ could do as far as ground interval. 

 

http://community.battlefront.com/topic/118887-operation-hercules-the-invasion-of-malta-wip/page-4

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[Los]

Has someone ever created abandoned parachutes as flavor items?

 

Los

[kohlenklau]

Los,

 

Juju is about to release discarded chutes mod.

Edited April 18, 2015 by kohlenklau

[kevinkin]

Holy mackerel. Will they billow in a strong wind? Carry away the trooper? Even if no they look cool.

Kevin

[kevinkin]

Would anyone like to team up and create an airborne drop scenario? Pretty open to any WW2 action.

Email me. Thanks.

Kevin

kevinkin@comcast.net

[kohlenklau]

Hey Kevin,

If you want to work on the Operation Hercules Malta airborne scenarios with FJ and folgore....swing on by the campaign factory with your ear plugs, safety goggles and steel toed boots! You know the address.