Anti-Material Rifles

[Bud Backer]

I can't recall seeing this ever discussed so forgive me if this is a known thing.

Does the game (CMBS here, but CM in general) simulate the effects of weapons like the .50 cal Barrett and others in their use in shooting out sensors, optics and the like? Is there a point in ordering a sniper to shoot at a tank, in other words?

[Thewood1]

It can damage the tank pretty easily.  I have seen a .50 cal MG disable a tank from the rear before.

[MOS:96B2P]

Does the game (CMBS here, but CM in general) simulate the effects of weapons like the .50 cal Barrett and others in their use in shooting out sensors, optics and the like? Is there a point in ordering a sniper to shoot at a tank, in other words?

 

The game simulates optics, sensors, radios etc damage by weapons.  I have seen this damage inflicted on tanks fairly often in the game.  However it is usually inflicted by HMGs etc.  In my experience it would not be worth the risk for a sniper to shoot at a tank with the purpose of knocking out a sensor. The sniper would probably just give away his position and suffer the appropriate fate.

 

In the WWII titles I have used snipers to shoot at an unbuttoned tank commander for the purpose of getting the tank to button up so their spotting is hindered.  I try to time this sniper attack with an attack by my tanks in the hope that this will increase the chance of my tanks getting the first spot and first shot.  Sometimes this works and sometimes not so much.   

[Ryujin]

The snipers seem to still aim center mass-ish in my experience, so it's not worth it against specific stuff like sensors. Against something overall thinly armored like a BMP,  BTR, or maybe a rear shot, it can work as a center shot will likely punch through and hit something but it probably won't disable the vehicle in just a couple shots.

 

I've used snipers vs BMP-3s before to get them to retreat and harass them, the rounds will penetrate and if you don't stick around to keep shooting them you can get away with it. But it didn't seem to do any serious damage in most cases. 

[xIGuNDoCIx]

I have taken out multiple BTR/BMP type vehicles using the .50 cal round in the game with both mounted M2's and M107 Sniper teams.  

 

Imperial Grunt sent me this msg regarding the type of .50cal ammo used in the game:

 

"The sniper team is doing a great job too. I advocated that snipers armed with the .50 cal M-107 fire the Mk211 HEIP round, which is much more effective against light armor than the standard issue .50 cal API round and it got included.

Here is some info on the Mk211 HEIAP round:

http://en.wikipedia..../Raufoss_Mk_211

At 1500m, the Mk211 round can penetrate around 50mm of armor at that range at a 90 degree angle. It is made to make to hole in the armor with the tungsten perpetrator while the HE effect ignites any fuel vapor/stored ammo. Works very well!"

 

See videos of me plinking BMPs with the Ma Deuce and the Barrett below:

 

M2 .50cal takes out BMP

https://youtu.be/SyV4rWlhCpM?t=6m3s

 

M107 Barrett takes out BMP

https://youtu.be/m6hPTwsIQa0?t=24m20s

Edited April 1, 2015 by xIGuNDoCIx

[Bud Backer]

Thanks for the info guys. As always you gave me more than I asked for and I appreciate it.

[Sublime]

Gundoc, I gotta say those shots are a beautiful thing.  Be interesting to see how possible this is once the patch is out though since Russian side armor and some other stuff has seemingly been nerfed by accident...

[John Kettler]

xiGuNDoCIx (with that handle, obviously way more dexterous than I am),

 

I thought SLAP at 19 mm at the same range was impressive. The MK 211 is roughly 2.5 times that.  In fact, it has better penetration at 1500 meters than did the 50 mm Pak-38!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

[xIGuNDoCIx]

xiGuNDoCIx (with that handle, obviously way more dexterous than I am),

 

I thought SLAP at 19 mm at the same range was impressive. The MK 211 is roughly 2.5 times that.  In fact, it has better penetration at 1500 meters than did the 50 mm Pak-38!

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler

John,

 

With that many posts I would think that you are more than capable of typing my name as you have clearly spent enough time behind your keyboard.      Yes the MK211 is a very good round!

[John Kettler]

xiGuNDoCIx, (I cheated; Copy/Pasted from #8)

 

It has a lot to do with the way my brain processes, or doesn't, certain kinds of visual information. What's perfectly normal to you as a way of expressing yourself initially registers on my awareness as about as understandable to me as Urdu. Essentially, it triggers a brain short. After that, it's still something like reading something worse than blocks of crypto code, and only then can I begin to tell my fingers what to do, yet I still had to fix it. Twice. As I've observed many times, I'd make a terrible teenaged girl, for my dexterity, compared to theirs, is awful. I am very much, you see, on the opposite end of the bell curve from those people you see on TV who jump on the computer and, with fingers dancing at the apparent cyclic rate of a MG-42, proceed to just fill up their screen. Eons ago I took touch typing, in a time in which I hadn't been pulverized yet by life, and though 99% accurate, my typing rate was 26 wpm! With the error rates I run these days, I'm profoundly grateful for word processors. That reminds me. I need to talk to Steve about my retirement plan. Ten cents a word retroactive to my first post, right? Should be an easy sell!

 

As for the MK 211, you'd think that a cartridge that potent would be unshootable by a man with a relatively light weapon (28.5 lbs empty w/scope) , but today's AMRs, unlike the PTRD (38.1 lbs, w/o scope)), for example, have proper recoil systems. YT has a vid showing a little boy firing a Barrett, for example. 

 

Regards,

 

Johm kettler

Edited April 3, 2015 by John Kettler

[Kieme(ITA)]

I just did some testing.

 

M107 barrett in sniper team vs some russian vehicles, distance 500/600m.

 

M107 penetrates MTLB, BTR-80, BRDM-2, - on all sides

M107 does not penetrate BMP-2 - frontally

M107 does not penetrate T-72BM3/T-90 - on the back.

M107 does not penetrate BMP-3 - frontally

M107 penetrates BMP-3 - on the side

 

Most of the penetrations did not cause damage to vehicle modules. But for one instance when a BTR-80 crew member was killed.

 

On BMP-3:

-the ERA version absorbs all shots (no penetrations)

-the sides get penetrated but not reliably (most are partial penetrations and armor spalling). I saw a partial penetration causing a casualty + a light wounded to the transported infantry team.

- a specific test on BMP-3, 10 turns long, with shots hitting the side, showed more or less one dead soldier inside the BMP-3 per turn, some sub-system damage (IR optics went even on Yellow, radio destroyed), until the remaining crew and mounted infantry panicked and dismounted the vehicle.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[Muzzleflash1990]

Be interesting to see how possible this is once the patch is out though since Russian side armor and some other stuff has seemingly been nerfed by accident...

 

 

Very interesting. Would this explains the disheartening issues I've had with my BMP-3s? Namely, them consistently losing against stykers frontally in 1-on-1 (and even a bleeping hummer) due to the 50. caliber causing frontal penetration which I believe it is protected against (and then a bit). One even blew up! - which I would normally consider extremely lucky, but not since all my other BMP-3s died to frontal 50. caliber fire - though not as violently. Are they also looking into why 7.62 penetrates the rear of BMP2/3? Something I believe they are just, if only barely, protected against.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Muzzleflash1990

[xIGuNDoCIx]

I just did some testing.

 

M107 barrett in sniper team vs some russian vehicles, distance 500/600m.

 

M107 penetrates MTLB, BTR-80, BRDM-2, - on all sides

M107 does not penetrate BMP-2 - frontally

M107 does not penetrate T-72BM3/T-90 - on the back.

M107 does not penetrate BMP-3 - frontally

M107 penetrates BMP-3 - on the side

 

Most of the penetrations did not cause damage to vehicle modules. But for one instance when a BTR-80 crew member was killed.

 

On BMP-3:

-the ERA version absorbs all shots (no penetrations)

-the sides get penetrated but not reliably (most are partial penetrations and armor spalling). I saw a partial penetration causing a casualty + a light wounded to the transported infantry team.

- a specific test on BMP-3, 10 turns long, with shots hitting the side, showed more or less one dead soldier inside the BMP-3 per turn, some sub-system damage (IR optics went even on Yellow, radio destroyed), until the remaining crew and mounted infantry panicked and dismounted the vehicle.

Nice!  All of my occurrences with the .50cal killing vehicles took place sub-500m (closer to the 200-300m range).  Also my shots in the video with the M107 has the sniper in a 4 story building shooting down onto the top armor but I am not sure how much of that makes a difference in the game.

[xIGuNDoCIx]

xiGuNDoCIx, (I cheated; Copy/Pasted from #8)

 

It has a lot to do with the way my brain processes, or doesn't, certain kinds of visual information. What's perfectly normal to you as a way of expressing yourself initially registers on my awareness as about as understandable to me as Urdu. Essentially, it triggers a brain short. After that, it's still something like reading something worse than blocks of crypto code, and only then can I begin to tell my fingers what to do, yet I still had to fix it. Twice. As I've observed many times, I'd make a terrible teenaged girl, for my dexterity, compared to theirs, is awful. I am very much, you see, on the opposite end of the bell curve from those people you see on TV who jump on the computer and, with fingers dancing at the apparent cyclic rate of a MG-42, proceed to just fill up their screen. Eons ago I took touch typing, in a time in which I hadn't been pulverized yet by life, and though 99% accurate, my typing rate was 26 wpm! With the error rates I run these days, I'm profoundly grateful for word processors. That reminds me. I need to talk to Steve about my retirement plan. Ten cents a word retroactive to my first post, right? Should be an easy sell!

 

As for the MK 211, you'd think that a cartridge that potent would be unshootable by a man with a relatively light weapon (28.5 lbs empty w/scope) , but today's AMRs, unlike the PTRD (38.1 lbs, w/o scope)), for example, have proper recoil systems. YT has a vid showing a little boy firing a Barrett, for example. 

 

Regards,

 

Johm kettler

Yes I know I have read your lengthy explanations before.  I'll make you a deal you can call me Doc and I will call you John!

[Bud Backer]

I just did some testing.

M107 barrett in sniper team vs some russian vehicles, distance 500/600m.

M107 penetrates MTLB, BTR-80, BRDM-2, - on all sides

M107 does not penetrate BMP-2 - frontally

M107 does not penetrate T-72BM3/T-90 - on the back.

M107 does not penetrate BMP-3 - frontally

M107 penetrates BMP-3 - on the side

Most of the penetrations did not cause damage to vehicle modules. But for one instance when a BTR-80 crew member was killed.

On BMP-3:

-the ERA version absorbs all shots (no penetrations)

-the sides get penetrated but not reliably (most are partial penetrations and armor spalling). I saw a partial penetration causing a casualty + a light wounded to the transported infantry team.

- a specific test on BMP-3, 10 turns long, with shots hitting the side, showed more or less one dead soldier inside the BMP-3 per turn, some sub-system damage (IR optics went even on Yellow, radio destroyed), until the remaining crew and mounted infantry panicked and dismounted the vehicle.

Nice of you to do all this testing, thank you!

Your results did make me wonder - the BMP-3 ARENA seems to lack ERA, which makes it a bit of a trade-off. Your testing would indicate that there are circumstances where the ERA version would be advantageous. I thought that the ERA version would include ARENA but it appears to me it does not. For the cost, be nice if it did!

Edited April 3, 2015 by Bud_B

[Kieme(ITA)]

As far as I know the ERA on BMP-3 was only developed after the UAE request for an ERA package. The only images of ERA BMP-3 in russian service are those of a vehicle with naval infantry markings, not sure if these are standard equipment for naval infantry or if it was just an improvised thing.

 

Anyway, ERA BMP-3 and ARENA BMP-3 were just a different path of development for export concepts. 

 

Due to the bulk of ERA on BMP-3 sides seems that the .50 anti tank guns can't get any penetration.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Kieme(ITA)

[John Kettler]

Doc,

 

Fair enough. To my knowledge, and this has been true clear back to CMx1 CMBO, the games explicitly model target aspect (azimuth),  elevation, pitch and cant when attacking a target in DF. Since the engagement is modeled in 3-D, there is a real advantage in engaging sloped armor from above, for doing this removes some of the effective thickness as a result. 

 

Regards,

 

John Kettler