panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Re: "Good T-90s" Sort of mixed emotions. On one hand you've basically placed the tank in a position/posture that's beyond reasonable expectations. Also tank seemed to light off once the lower side was struck, and 20 MM from that close of a range isn't super-unreasonable. Which is to say I feel a bit like it's this: Basically we've placed a M2 in the most optimal position to knockout a tank. The .50 cal is not a reasonable anti-tank weapon because in all real life positioning, it's going to end poorly, but that doesn't mean that again, in optimal, not reality based positions, it shouldn't have some effect on parts of the T-90's armor array. I'm not bored enough to try this, but have we run similar tests with Ukrainian vehicles? Abrams is a bit of a wash given it's better armored to begin with, but there's at least anecdotal evidence that IRL a lucky shot did penetrate, but some sort of T-90 glitch might be in the works if T-64BVs are shrugging off .50 cal in a similar posture. Re: Screenshot Have to say, it looks about right in the screenshot for what close quarters .50 cal fire will do to a tank. Wounded driver is a bit out there, but the rest is at least conceivable given a machine gun firing from close range into the side like that. The T-90 is just not that well armored away from its ERA arrays. The autocannon upper side hits raise my eyebrows a little, but lower hull hits are going to be a problem. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdwing Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 it still seems pretty out-of-place. Is that exact area being hit 20mm of armor? That seems like an enormous design flaw. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danzig5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Hmm, I didn't know the armor was only 20mm anywhere but where the torsion bars run along the bottom of the vehicle. I know this diagram Which Is quite old, being a original t-64 but the 20mm area is very low on the body, no real critical systems behind it besides the suspension and the rest of the hull armor is thick enough. Soviet I mean Federalist tank hulls haven't weakened much since the cold war, so I'm not convinced the results of these tests represent reality . I repeated this test with the .50 at 100m on the second floor firing down at the tank and it had no trouble repeating the results including the ammo explosion. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SgtHatred Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I just had 6 .50 cal American sniper teams hammer the side of a T-90A. Smashed most of the internal subsystems, killed the driver of the tank, and blew it apart in 1 minute, 22 seconds. http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/706273787328364331/0F1CF860F953FD01652303F4DE21EA0B8497B4FA/ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danzig5 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) To answer any outstanding questions I have used this setup to film the following video presentation. http://youtu.be/dJYVhHBaTOQ From left to right are the T-64bv, the BM Bulat, the BM Oplot, the T-72b3, the T-90a, and the T-90AM. The BV, Bulat, and T-90AM all suffer partial or full penetration of the upper side hull once. The T-90a seems to allow more shells in than it keeps out, lower hull especially. Bug is not confined to upper hull armor, lower hull is much to thin as well. Edited February 13, 2015 by danzig5 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stagler Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) I just had 6 .50 cal American sniper teams hammer the side of a T-90A. Smashed most of the internal subsystems, killed the driver of the tank, and blew it apart in 1 minute, 22 seconds. http://cloud-4.steamusercontent.com/ugc/706273787328364331/0F1CF860F953FD01652303F4DE21EA0B8497B4FA/ Haha, i would agree then that there is an issue. Subsystems yes. Driver, not a chance. Edited February 13, 2015 by Stagler 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soviet Hero Posted February 13, 2015 Author Share Posted February 13, 2015 lower side hull is only 20mm. The upper side hull penetrations are a concern and have been reported. Thank you AKD, but also a problem with T-72B3, I hope you can be reported together. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thewood1 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 It also seems weird where the hit spots are all exactly in the middle of the side. Is a .50 cal really that accurate? Why is there so little shot spread? I have been running a bunch of tests and it seems the more modern a Russian tank, the more likely to be penetrated by smaller rounds. I have found the BMP3M more survivable than a T-90 from the side...by a little bit only. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) It also seems weird where the hit spots are all exactly in the middle of the side. Is a .50 cal really that accurate? Why is there so little shot spread? it's 100m.... I don't know where the line between upper side hull and lower side hull is for hit reporting. It is not necessarily where there is a change in armor. I've also run into quite a few bugs with upper side hull / lower side hull hit reports. However, the hit decals tell a fairly clear story: .50 cal SLAP appears to be penetrating where there should be approx 60-80mm plate behind skirts (still looking for a good source on T-90A side armor). Obviously a bug. Edited February 13, 2015 by akd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skwabie Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 It could be BFC is simulating "degraded armor qualities" due to western embargo 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 I don't know where the line between upper side hull and lower side hull is for hit reporting. It is not necessarily where there is a change in armor. I've also run into quite a few bugs with upper side hull / lower side hull hit reports. However, the hit decals tell a fairly clear story: .50 cal SLAP appears to be penetrating where there should be approx 60-80mm plate behind skirts (still looking for a good source on T-90A side armor). Obviously a bug. Looking at the performance across the board, almost seems reasonable there's something wrong with heavy machine guns/autocannons vs tanks. Stands to reason T-90A might just be most susceptible that issue because of armor values vs T-90 is broken itself. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 (edited) T-90A hull sides must be considered weaker than T-72B3 as KPVT at approx 100m will fire on the T-90A, but not on T-72B3. However, although it will fire freely on the T-90A, it can only penetrate "lower side hull." Lower side hull location in game appears to be higher than the actual thinner (20mm sloped plate) area on T-XX series, which is behind the road wheels. 14.5mm BS-41 penetration: 100 m / 90o / 40 mm 300 m / 90o / 35 mm This also suggests that the .50 SLAP penetration is set too high in game. My guess is we have combination of penetrations stats set to too high and armor values set too low. .50 cal M903 SLAP penetration: 100 meters: ? 500 meters: 1.34 in (34 mm) 1,200 meters: 0.91 in (23 mm) .50 cal Mk211 penetration (I know M107 in game is assigned this. I don't know what ammo vehicles use.) 11 mm Armour in 45° at 1000 m 30mm 3UBR8 APDS penetration: @0° 66 mm at muzzle @60° 100m - 45mm 200m - 40mm 500m - 33mm 1000m - 28mm Edited February 13, 2015 by akd 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fire11 Posted February 13, 2015 Share Posted February 13, 2015 Don't come out of hiding often here, after reading these messages, it remineded me of a situation the other evening which was good for a M1 but bad for the T90. While backing out of a bad situation with my damaged M1 through the clearing smoke I see a couple 90's down the road. In desparation I fire off a round and not only take out the first 90 but the one behind as well. Rather saved the day. Penetration was through frontal armor but could not tell if turrent or main body of the 90's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexey K Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I'am sorry for offtopic but how did you get "red" T-64, Bulat and Oplot? Is there are way to give sides arbitary troops and/or vehicles? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 So is this on the list for 1.02 ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 I'am sorry for offtopic but how did you get "red" T-64, Bulat and Oplot? Is there are way to give sides arbitary troops and/or vehicles?Yes, in the scenario editor on the Data page switch the Force vs Force setting from Blue vs Red (standard) to Red vs Red or Blue vs Blue and that will allow out add whatever you like. Then switch back to Blue vs Red (standard) when you are done playing musical equipment. See page 81 of the manual. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisND Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 Adjustment to T-90 side armor for patch v1.02: All T-90 variants have increased hull side protection: Added 20mm to upper side armor. Lower side armor effectiveness increased by calculating as sloped 32 degrees (was previously treated as unsloped). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
highlandcharge Posted February 20, 2015 Share Posted February 20, 2015 So is this on the list for 1.02 ? +1 and is there any rough ETA on 1.02? Cheers 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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