mvp7 Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 I have never understood how to use reconnaissance vehicles in combat mission games. The biggest issue I have with reconnaissance vehicles is that they are almost always spotted by the enemy before they spot the enemy because even with their fancy optics they are still large objects and on the move (WW2 scout vehicles lack even the optics). Usually the first notion of enemy for a recon vehicle is getting hit by ATGM or cannon. Since the recon vehicles get spotted and fired upon first they usually get destroyed. In WW2 setting I guess that makes sense, losing a BA-64 hurts less than losing a T-34, but because of this I usually quickly run out of scout vehicles in CM campaigns since there usually aren't that many of them in formations. In the context of modern warfare I don't see how it is sensible to have couple undermanned humvees loaded with expensive optics and communications equipment driving before the main force towards their likely destruction in first contact. It would seem much better to use either expendable minimum value vehicles like basic armored humvees with smoke launchers or as sturdy and protected vehicles as possible like turretless MBT chassis with ERA and APS. Scout formations are also usually undermanned in general so using them on foot often leads to the units getting overwhelmed and destroyed by any kind of enemy units. With scout force consisting of light recon vehicle platoon my usual reconnaissance in CM mission goes something like this: You slowly drive your vehicles towards good looking positions and either leave them (making all that lovely reconnaissance hardware pointless) or drive them too close and they get shot. You can then try to move your 3 man (or smaller) teams armed only with assault rifles forward in attempt to locate the enemy but if and when they are spotted they will be quickly pinned down and very likely killed. Your scouts will often take heavy losses for very little gain and your main force will still have to march into largely unknown resistance. The more effective and sensible reconnaissance strategy (in my opinion) is the aggressive (see Russian 'Reconnaissance batallion (old)' or US 'Cavalry Troop [armored]' in BS). I especially like the Russian formation: You have pretty much a light infantry formations with BMPs and BRDMs. First vehicle that you would call a specialized reconnaissance vehicle is the company HQ and it's very unlikely to be lost in combat. As with specialized recon vehicles, your BMPs will most likely notice the enemy when they are hit by missile or cannon. Unlike scout car or stryker, BMP can even effectively answer to most threats if it happens to survive the first shots. You can then start deploying the rest of your scouts, moving you well armed teams into contact with enemy and support them with formidable firepower of your BMPs, you will get very clear picture of enemy force and deployment, you will often locate their ATGMs and other dangerous weapons and maybe even destroy them. By the time your main force arrives you have a lot of room to move your fresh troops against the enemy that is tied to combat with your scouts. The US cavalry troop with cavalry Bradleys is otherwise pretty similar but it has less vehicles, all of them more expensive and the infantry teams are smaller and only armed with M4A1s so those very likely losses hurt more and you need to use your vehicles more aggressively to keep your infantry from getting pinned down. So is there some proper way to use those reconnaissance humvees and Strykers, especially in mission where you start with scouts only and need to wait for fighting units? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergei Posted February 2, 2015 Share Posted February 2, 2015 This is the third thread I've seen lately asking about recon vehicles, so I'm just going to use the same response "All recon vehicles are challenging to use in Combat Mission because they are intended for operational or grand tactical level reconnaissance, ie. to report to brigade HQ if there's enemy forces in an area the size of a CM map and if they are moving, blocking roads or such. After that they're just poorly armed and armoured vehicles with slightly better sensors than usual and should be used accordingly, ie. with special care." If you have a huge map with large unoccupied areas then dedicated recon vehicles with good sensors may be of actual nominal use. But if not, ignore that they are recon vehicles and just consider their combat capabilities. Also be prepared to leave some of the vehicles in a safe place and use the crews for foot recon if it looks like a trap. Another thing is to think that cavalry's first objective is to determine where the enemy isn't, so don't send them headlong against where you suspect they will be but use them to secure flanks and approach avenues. Just sometimes you don't have that luxury... 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 What Sergei said. Other than that, recon vehicles are pretty much used to carry your FO's around the battlefield. As things are now FOs really only have all of the useful equipment you will need to spot and target contacts for arty/airstrikes, unfortunately. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 What Sergei said sums it up very well .... With emphasis.... "... cavalry's first objective is to determine where the enemy isn't (so you can put the right tools in the right places) .... don't send 'reconnaissance vehicles' headlong against where you suspect 'stuff that can kill you' will be but use 'reconnaissance vehicles' to secure flanks and approach avenues....." and.. "sometimes you don't have that luxury..." 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
db_zero Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 In all CM games I regard recon vechices as rear area security, flank security or sacrificial lamb. The MG's and cannons are useful against infantry and other light vechicles. In CMBS the same holds true with the addition that HUMVEES can also be used as taxis for HQ/FOs/snipers. They also can be used as resupply or to top off squads. All units have a function. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 And you can always park them on a VL you've cleared, once they've dropped off all their ammo and the FOs don't need to scurry around any more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahger Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 I am wondering how to use my Armored Knight. According to the manual it has all sorts of goodies such as laser equipment, special targeting software and a Fire Support Sensor System (FS3) but would I be wrong in saying that this kit is used to guide munitions like LGBs that are not yet modeled in the game? Does it have something as simple as a periscope, so that I can get a bit of an edge in scouting over the brow of a hill or in a wheat field? How exactly can I leverage this recon vehicle in CMBS combat as presently configured? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerdwing Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 You cant 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahger Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 You cant Ah. And it has no passenger capacity for ferrying troops so it's basically a big, dumb .50 cal platform... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panzersaurkrautwerfer Posted February 3, 2015 Share Posted February 3, 2015 Armored Knight is a Forward Observer vehicle. It should be able to faster process fire support requests, and it does have pretty good optics. On the other hand it isn't a BFIST and not at all "Better" than the old wheeled spotter vehicles. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mvp7 Posted February 3, 2015 Author Share Posted February 3, 2015 Thanks for answers. At least I'm not alone in not being able to do much reconnaissance with reconnaissance vehicles. I have usually ended up using them as taxis for small teams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) I suspect they are mostly impractical for about 90% of the scenarios they are used in for CM. You can see the logic of how useful something like an M8 Greyhound is if the enemy's own recon screen usually consists of guys driving around the countryside in a Kubelwagon. Granted this is BS not BN but the idea is the same. CM scenarios are often constructed to be challenging not walk overs. Recon assets are poorly applied in such situations but often that was the intention of the scenario designer. Edited February 4, 2015 by CaptHawkeye 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 As has been said elsewhere by persons other than myself, the kind of reconnaissance requiring specialized vehicles such as armored cars or other light armored or unarmored vehicles has been done before a CM engagement begins. In other words, the general location of the enemy is known (he's on the other side of the map). Now it's time to send in the assault forces. In a way this makes me a little sad. Now that bigger maps are become more feasible, I wonder if it may soon be possible to design scenarios incorporating classical recon. That might be something like send a troop of recon vehicles down a long highway to find out if it is blocked, mined, or defended. Or a squadron could be tasked with guarding a flank; it wouldn't necessarily be expected to repel an attack, but to warn of it and impeded it without sacrificing too much of your own force. And so forth. Probes would become the real thing: the object would not be to gain territory or to destroy the enemy, but to make him reveal himself and in what strength. But for these kinds of scenarios to work, the game's mechanism for determining victory would need to be redeveloped. Michael 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melchior Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Pretty sure mechanics and scoring for probing/reconnaissance is already in the game. You can construct scenarios about recon, it's just that you don't often see them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Recon vehicles are in the game because they're a significant portion of the real-world TO&E of the relevant army, not because they'd be particularly applicable in any CM scenario. I remember joking all the way back in CMSF that if you're frustrated with recon Humvee don't blame BFC, blame the United States Army. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahger Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) As has been said elsewhere by persons other than myself, the kind of reconnaissance requiring specialized vehicles such as armored cars or other light armored or unarmored vehicles has been done before a CM engagement begins. In other words, the general location of the enemy is known (he's on the other side of the map). Now it's time to send in the assault forces. In a way this makes me a little sad. Now that bigger maps are become more feasible, I wonder if it may soon be possible to design scenarios incorporating classical recon. That might be something like send a troop of recon vehicles down a long highway to find out if it is blocked, mined, or defended. Or a squadron could be tasked with guarding a flank; it wouldn't necessarily be expected to repel an attack, but to warn of it and impeded it without sacrificing too much of your own force. And so forth. Probes would become the real thing: the object would not be to gain territory or to destroy the enemy, but to make him reveal himself and in what strength. But for these kinds of scenarios to work, the game's mechanism for determining victory would need to be redeveloped. Michael Wise words, IMO. It is a little frustrating to have a big, vulnerable wagon that cannot carry troops nor implement the function for which it was built and I can only hope that my opponent also has to deal with an equivalent piece of redundant equipment or our force allocation might be a little unbalanced as a result, especially in small-scale battles where every vehicle counts. Michael is right, though, the kind of operational recon for which this wheeled brick was built takes place at a higher command level and on a bigger battlefield than this game was designed for. To leverage it, we'd need an operational-scale battlefield sim; I haven't played one of those since the sadly missed Decisive Action. Edited February 4, 2015 by Bahger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 "... To leverage it, we'd need an operational-scale battlefield sim..." Or go the other direction. A huge map with a small-scale recon action, using a couple platoons, playing real time w/o pauses. With creative use of triggers a good scenario designer could make for a fun time with recon... especially at night. Armored Knight is pretty cool looking ride. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bahger Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) Armored Knight is pretty cool looking ride. Yes, but it's full of systems that are not implemented in the game, so for the time being it is limited to being what's known as "colour". Maybe one day they will include LGBs that can only be directed by assets like the Armored Knight. Edited February 4, 2015 by Bahger 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 It is a little frustrating to have a big, vulnerable wagon that cannot carry troops nor implement the function for which it was built and I can only hope that my opponent also has to deal with an equivalent piece of redundant equipment or our force allocation might be a little unbalanced as a result, especially in small-scale battles where every vehicle counts.What is this "balance" of which you speak? If it's a scenario, you can only hope it's been playtested a couple of times to see if there is an egregious mismatch. If it's a QB, why did you even buy the thing (once you know it isn't any use)?Michael is right, though, the kind of operational recon for which this wheeled brick was built takes place at a higher command level and on a bigger battlefield than this game was designed for. To leverage it, we'd need an operational-scale battlefield sim...I disagree. There are VCs assignable for spotting enemy. As Hawkeye says, you just need more scenarios designed using them. Maps can be pretty big now, to the point where if they're any bigger, you'd be spending more time looking for the enemy than actually finding him, which doesn't make for an enduringly satisfying game... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I disagree. There are VCs assignable for spotting enemy. As Hawkeye says, you just need more scenarios designed using them.Well I'll be damned I was just about to write that you were wrong when I check the manual first and found this:- Spot: you earn points by spotting and identifying the designated units.I do not remember seeing that in the scenario editor - mind you I never looked for it either. I know what I'm doing to night... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Off the top of my head there 3 scenarios where recon can be used as recon. Potential spoilers ahead! Bridgehead at Kharlalyk (sp?), and Valley of Death. Both start with your scouts in positions where they actually can do some good ahead of your main force. Also the beginning of Mission 1 Task Force 3/69 in the American Campaign starts with scouts. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Splinty Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Haha, for any Rush fans out there my last post was number 2112! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 (edited) [oops, wrong forum] Edited February 4, 2015 by MikeyD 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 Haha, for any Rush fans out there my last post was number 2112!2112 I don't see that number. I think spoiled it by point it out 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 4, 2015 Share Posted February 4, 2015 I do not remember seeing that in the scenario editor - mind you I never looked for it either. I know what I'm doing to night...I encountered it, I think, in one of the German campaigns in BN... Might even be the first, or second scenario, where you have to scout the Ami positions in the dark, ready for an attack come dawn, and you get more at-start-intel for the Assault if you "win" the first scenario than if you "lose" it (at whatever margin the designer set for the branch). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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