Iraq's Awakening Movement

[Buzz]

In light of how some CMSF scenarios portrayed conflicts and the recent events I thought others may find this 9 minute audio interesting. I did.

Iraq's Awakening Movement

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p021q7fz

First broadcast: Friday 04 July 2014

In 2006 Sunni tribal militia turned against Al Qaeda in Iraq and began working with US forces. It was a turning point in the insurgency in Iraq. We hear from a former US Marine, David Goldich, who served in Anbar province and witnessed the emergence of the Awakening movement.

[Saferight]

Hate to say it but all those guys have defected to to the insurgents once again or laid down there arms cause of stuff like this...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=145_1403535601

Other videos out there of them "repenting" in mass to avoid a similar fate. Throwing stacks of cash at them only bought peace for awhile.

[Buzz]

Doubt "repenting" avoided fate.

"A third push was mounted from September 2006 and lasting until mid-January 2007. Tactics developed in what has been called the "Third Battle of Fallujah," when applied on a larger scale in Ramadi and the surrounding area led to what became known as "the Great Sunni Awakening." After four years of bitter fighting, Fallujah was turned over to the Iraqi Forces and Iraqi Provincial Authority during the Fall of 2007."

Regarding seeing the situation go south in 2014, I found the Marine's (turret gunner) audio comments honest. They did what they could to make a bad situation better.

Now things changed again... but not better.

[LongLeftFlank]

Let me guess the punchline: Our Men Died In Vain. No They Didn't, They Defend Out Freedoms. Both sets of ideologues miss the point that the judgment of history is a constantly moving target

Guess what? the tribal leaders -- the organic ruling class in Anbar since the domestication of wide-assed goats will turn on and shoot the ISIL nutjobs the moment they become inconvenient in putting Baghdad in its proper place. And America will have f*ck-all to do with that.

Local homeboy Saddam Hussein knew all this, and used it to his advantage, but he was an aberration in Mesopotamian history and waxing nostalgic for him is like longing for Stalin. They're still finding mass graves dating from Saddam's rule. His successors have a long way to go to equal that flavour of evil.

So these tribes are going to fight outside Authoritah until they see value coming from there. Uncle Sugar figured that out by 2006, just as he did in Korea and everywhere else where the dominoes didn't fall. Today's bribed warlords and generals are the fathers of tomorrow's mall developers and Hermes franchisees. Except when the self-haters back home pulled the plug too soon, which meant 25 more years of stasis (e.g. Vietnam) until the locals finally figure out how money is made again.

[Erwin]

There is reason to consider that the ISIS/ISIL phenomenon could be a good thing for western interests for that reason. Hopefully, they will siphon off the Iranian trained Hezbollah guys who are helping Assad vs the (kinda) western backed rebels. And as LLF said, they provide a focus for various western enemies to fight and hopefully neutralize each other. If this works, someone in the CIA should get a medal.

[Buzz]

I thought the Marine's (turret gunner) comments were honest. Bad situation made better for a while anyway. I am pretty sure the Marine in the audio was mostly concerned about him and his buddies getting through their tour in one piece as best they could. Not much a Marine can do to or for the bona fide nutjobs except maybe help them achieve their own version of "heaven" as rapidly as a turret gunner can while protecting himself and his buddies.

[agusto]

There is reason to consider that the ISIS/ISIL phenomenon could be a good thing for western interests for that reason. Hopefully, they will siphon off the Iranian trained Hezbollah guys who are helping Assad vs the (kinda) western backed rebels. And as LLF said, they provide a focus for various western enemies to fight and hopefully neutralize each other. If this works, someone in the CIA should get a medal.

Or things could go like Somalia where the civil war is still raging after 23 years of constant fighting.

[Erwin]

That was my point. Better they fight each other than turn their attention to foreign adventures. Realpolitik...

[Saferight]

Better they fight each other than turn their attention to foreign adventures.

Its exactly these sort of situations that provide a breeding ground for those foreign adventures. It may seem very far away at this point through our computer screens and newspapers but the whole region imploding on itself may have dire consequences for the rest of the world...

[Erwin]

It's imposing rulers that we like and the locals hate that breeds foreign adventures.

The reality is that we (in the west) cannot impose rule over these places. The Romans imposed Roman Peace, by killing everybody. Can't do that these days. All succeeding empires also failed.

They need to sort this stuff out themselves. And if that means they end up with internal war, that will keep them distracted.

[sburke]

the really sad thing is that Islam was for a while the bearer of light in a very barbaric period in the West. Even into the late 1400's Islam was far more tolerant than Christianity. (medieval Spain being the classic location to compare how the two groups ruled.) Now it seems like a good portion of the Islamic world feels it missed out on something in that period and wants to live the dark ages all over again.

[Saferight]

And if that means they end up with internal war, that will keep them distracted.

Thing is theres a good portion of them that don't want to keep it internal. They are truly longing to strike at us. A couple years back it was all about AQAP in Yemen and the threats they posed with the gains they had made. What we have seen take shape in Syria and Iraq now i think is more of a threat than that or what came out of Afghanistan after the civil war.

I agree with you though i believe in isolation from the whole mess but i think its unavoidable in the long run. Truly damned if you do damned if you don't kind of deal.

[Buzz]

If my presence in a place is a cause for grievance then my moving out should resolve the grievance. Shouldn't it?

If after leaving to provide relief for the grievance the grieved follows me to my own country ... to kill me and anyone like me... it seems their ideology, their ideas and manner of thinking is the real problem.

Heard this tech related audio this AM.

Jihadi Videos Push Islamic Music's Austere Boundaries

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/13/331133851/jihadi-videos-push-islamic-musics-austere-boundaries

Islamist militants have stepped up their game when it comes to the music and visuals in their videos. NPR's Arun Rath talks to scholar Peter Neumann about today's tech-savvy jihadists.

[Saferight]

If my presence in a place is a cause for grievance then my moving out should resolve the grievance. Shouldn't it?

If after leaving to provide relief for the grievance the grieved follows me to my own country ... to kill me and anyone like me... it seems their ideology, their ideas and manner of thinking is the real problem.

Heard this tech related audio this AM.

Jihadi Videos Push Islamic Music's Austere Boundaries

http://www.npr.org/2014/07/13/331133851/jihadi-videos-push-islamic-musics-austere-boundaries

Islamist militants have stepped up their game when it comes to the music and visuals in their videos. NPR's Arun Rath talks to scholar Peter Neumann about today's tech-savvy jihadists.

I agree. These guys have stepped their game up in many other areas thanks to the opportunity the civil war in Syria has given them propaganda one of them. One of the others thats having a factor on the battlefield is the surge in the use of ATGM's.

Heres a article on it along with a video and pictures

http://www.janes.com/article/39550/iraqi-abrams-losses-revealed

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f88_1402790352

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=414_1405115627

[Buzz]

The "opportunity" to train in the civil war in Syria appears to have improved their resources, material weapons and use of ATGM's on refurbished M1A1 Abrams tanks!

[Erwin]

Apparently "refurbished" means that the M1's had their special armor removed so they are more vulnerable to ATGM's. However, since many were hit from the side, it does appear that M1's are no longer the invulnerable beasts they were reputed to be.

[Skwabie]

i reckon nothing stands against side hits. aren't modern mbt side armor only some 80mm thick. the ww2 tiger1 tank side armor... also 80mm.

without addon era module an rpg7 would do. hell, once in cmsf my m1a2, with era even, got knocked out by a side rpg7 shot:mad:

[Cpl Steiner]

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread (or even forum) for this but I read recently that modern islamism arose in 1928 in Egypt with the birth of the Muslim Brotherhood and its ideology is firmly rooted in that period, drawing for inspiration on Hitler and Mussolini's Fascism and Stalin's Communism. It has very little to do with the last Caliphate, which was by all accounts quite enlightened for its time, practicing tolerance towards other faiths and patronising science and the arts. If the islamists were to bring back the Caliphate of history rather than their own fantasy version, we could all get back to living our lives in peace.

[EDIT]

Apparently Hitler was quite a hero amongst the Arab world in the 30s...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relations_between_Nazi_Germany_and_the_Arab_world

I don't want to stretch the point too far but just saying that radical islamism is a pretty recent phenomenon with its roots to some extent in Nazi Germany rather than any Caliphate of the past.

[Buzz]

The modern Caliphate does not appear very enlightened. If there is no relief for their grievance / ideology but to behead others that don't pass their ideology test ... it seems their is little recourse their ideas and manner of thinking .... the real problem.

In the BBC " Iraq's Awakening Movement" audio clip I was struck by the Marine's sincerity that the Sunni's who were killing Marines saw that the AQ in their midst were worse than Marines and turned things around rather sharply on AQ.

Maybe Iraq's Awakening Movement v.2 will happen for mr. Al-Baghdadi & his crew.

[Lethaface]

Not sure if this is the appropriate thread (or even forum) for this but I read recently that modern islamism arose in 1928 in Egypt with the birth of the Muslim Brotherhood and its ideology is firmly rooted in that period, drawing for inspiration on Hitler and Mussolini's Fascism and Stalin's Communism. It has very little to do with the last Caliphate, which was by all accounts quite enlightened for its time, practicing tolerance towards other faiths and patronising science and the arts. If the islamists were to bring back the Caliphate of history rather than their own fantasy version, we could all get back to living our lives in peace.

The current Iraq/Syria wars are sectarian conflicts; they (should) have little to none to do with the religion of an individual. Probably just really a proxy war between Iran and Saudi's for regional control and divide et impera at work. Radicalization is not something new and has been showing in theaters around the world since well before the crusades.

Also in current times dwelling souls from other countries are influenced by propaganda, probably thinking they can contribute more in a far away war against 'infidels' than in their current 'pointless' existence.

Perhaps the brotherhood was influence by fascism, like Hitler was himself. But does that have any connection to current events? In the roaring '20s conquering regions was still something to be proud of. Saudi Arabia was only established well into the twenties, because the Saud family conqured the throne of Hejaz. The defeated Hashemites still rule Jordan. The only reason it wasn't owned by the British is because they didn't know about the oilz under those desert sands.

Me thinks that anyone with power in any part of the world learns from history. Unfortunately few grasp the concept mentioned by Tsun Tzu in his 'Art of War' that 'the best victory is one where the opponent surrenders without any bloodshed' but have totally embraced Machiavelli's concept of 'means to an end'. That goes for Hamas, Israel, Assad, Saddam, Maliki, ISIS, etc etc... and unfortunately also the US. Current situation in Iraq, Syria, Israel/Palestine is just really SNAFU

And that brings me to an interesting documentary I saw last week by Jeremy Scahill: 'Dirty Wars'.

For my fellow Europeans: to be seen from here (Dutch public tv), unfortunately this service is iirc not accessible from outside Europe:

http://www.npo.nl/2doc/10-07-2014/VPWON_1197675

[sburke]

I'd say the conservatism we see in Islam has much more specifc roots- Saudi Arabia.

Couple interesting items from wikipedia. I expect the authors will be on the receiving end of a fatwa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamism

1 -The Arab world – the original heart of the Muslim world – has been afflicted with economic stagnation. For example, it has been estimated that the exports of Finland, a European country of five million, exceeded those of the entire Arab world of 260 million, excluding oil revenue.

2- Starting in the mid-1970s the Islamic resurgence was funded by an abundance of money from Saudi Arabian oil exports.[63] The tens of billions of dollars in "petro-Islam" largesse obtained from the recently heightened price of oil funded an estimated "90% of the expenses of the entire faith."

Throughout the Muslim world, religious institutions for people both young and old, from children's maddrassas to high-level scholarships received Saudi funding,[65] "books, scholarships, fellowships, and mosques" (for example, "more than 1500 mosques were built and paid for with money obtained from public Saudi funds over the last 50 years"),[66] along with training in the Kingdom for the preachers and teachers who went on to teach and work at these universities, schools, mosques, etc.

The funding was also used to reward journalists and academics who followed the Saudis' strict interpretation of Islam; and satellite campuses were built around Egypt for Al Azhar, the world's oldest and most influential Islamic university.

The interpretation of Islam promoted by this funding was the strict, conservative Saudi-based Wahhabism or Salafism. In its harshest form it preached that Muslims should not only "always oppose" infidels "in every way," but "hate them for their religion ... for Allah's sake," that democracy "is responsible for all the horrible wars of the 20th century," that Shia and other non-Wahhabi Muslims were infidels, etc. While this effort has by no means converted all, or even most Muslims to the Wahhabist interpretation of Islam, it has done much to overwhelm more moderate local interpretations, and has set the Saudi-interpretation of Islam as the "gold standard" of religion in minds of some or many Muslims.

[Lethaface]

Well Saddam wasn't really the typical Wahhabi or Salafist, and not on friendly terms with Saudi's. However, for some or many of those groups (mainly sunni minority) that lived alright under Saddam (and weren't really busy being extremists) things have gotten worse since Saddam was removed. Apart from security they don't feel involved in the new state, which is imo the sole reason some/many? of them supporting IS or likeminded groups. I don't think it has much to do with the religion of the individual, but more likely pragmatic backing of ideologies / groups that have the means to return the favor; for as long as that goes. Saudi's financing Islamic centers around the world is a perfect example of how to gain power / spread influence using religion as a tool. Some of it might be genuine help for people, but I think it is naive to think they involved for the plain sake of spreading their interpretations of religion.

On the same note, I doubt there are many extremist groups with at the core of the organization a goal of having a stable and thus peaceful society among themselves. No, money and power is at the end of all of the sticks in the world. At least as far as I can reason.

[Buzz]

'the best victory is one where the opponent surrenders without any bloodshed'

Yes. I agree 100%.

Difficult to accomplish. I am not in their land messing with them.

If jihadi opponents in their current 'pointless' existence / proxy war are indoctrinated ... with nasheed Islamic State of Iraq.... that they may contribute more in a far away war against 'infidels'... like in Europe, UK and USA.... not much we can do but prevent when possible and resist their contributions.

Present-day, terrorist-run "caliphate" in Iraq and Syria has so little in common with the original caliphates.

*not all Anasheed are jihadist.* ISIS jihadists have co-opted Anasheed to advance their agenda and ideology.

Back to CMSF-2......

The CMSF-2 (with v3+ engine) should provide a rich gaming milieu for any perspective.... Red on Blue, Blue on Blue, any mix of these colors via economic stagnation, sectarian conflicts to, Caliphate "forced procurement" to spread ideology.

With the Battlefront focus on current production we CM fans are on "intermission" till CMx2 and CMBS are completed I suspect. When CMSF-2 arrives, hopefully bringing all the original user made value with it, we will have massive CMSF-2 Awakening Movement of just how timely and timeless this game is. Might even be able to scenario Iraq's Awakening Movement v.2 ?

[Saferight]

I'd say the conservatism we see in Islam has much more specifc roots- Saudi Arabia.

I was waiting for someone to say this, they are the ones who created this monster. Reminds me of someone raising a dog to be vicious and unloving then acting surprised when the dog attacks them or a family member. Well that dog has yet to really sink its teeth into their ass and i doubt all their nice western toys bought with petro-dollars from the west are going to do them any good.

[Erwin]

The biggest threat to the west isn't violent uprisings in the ME spreading. It is the "virtual invasion" of unrestricted immigration that has brought millions of Muslims to Europe. If you visited recently you'll have experienced large areas that feel like you are already in a Muslim country with women in Burkas and other traditional dress for even the men, no signage in the local national language etc.

I was in UK in May and read that the govt had to step in as Islamics had tried to essentially take over school districts (in Birmingham IIRC) and they were promoting their idealogy including supporting Sharia law etc. This pressure on the native Brit culture (of the last few centuries anyhow) is only going to increase. The rest of Europe is also in deep doo doo with this issue.