Artillery Details

[Der Alte Fritz]

Does anyone have a table showing what the various parameters for artillery mean?

ie. A Medium strike for short duration with 4 guns delivers what?

[womble]

Does anyone have a table showing what the various parameters for artillery mean?

ie. A Medium strike for short duration with 4 guns delivers what?

I remember someone did some digging, early on in BN. IIRC, they found that the answer varies according to weapon system, so you need a table for every asset: German 105s (for illustrative example, don't quote me) might have a different RoF to American 105s. They certainly have a different RoF to Nebelwerfers.

If I find myself caring during a game, I tend to go set up a test scenario with the specific assets and see for myself how many shells each mission throws. You can hand the shooting side multiple batteries to see what effect changing duration, weight and tube count shooting have on your salvo possibilities.

[mjkerner]

This table will help.

http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/German_Artillery_Delivery_Times

[Skwabie]

This table will help.

http://combatmission.wikia.com/wiki/German_Artillery_Delivery_Times

interesting... didnt know CM had a wikia page.

and yes ive tried the same. US artillery is very fast. russian and german response time is on slow side compared to others.

[Baneman]

Does anyone have a table showing what the various parameters for artillery mean?

ie. A Medium strike for short duration with 4 guns delivers what?

I have half a table of this sort. Just ran short of time to complete it really, but if there is major interest in this, I shall endeavour to complete it ( for RT ) and publish it here.

I'll need a couple more days though.

I was looking at it from the point of view of "How many rounds will drop per turn for how many turns for how many tubes."

I wasn't fussed about how long before they would come in, but I see from mjkerner's link that that has been done

Then I will probably have to go back to BN where the Allied side of things has more.

But I may need to be harried and whipped to get that done.

[H1nd]

Baneman, I can tell that I would love to have such a table! I have been using test scenarios for individual situations like Womble described since I want to be spot on with the stuff. Usually my plans have quite tight timetables so knowing the durations and effect of the artillery would ease my planning effort a lot!

[Bulletpoint]

Does anyone have a table showing what the various parameters for artillery mean?

ie. A Medium strike for short duration with 4 guns delivers what?

EDIT: After writing this, I realized it's probably not what you were asking for, but I'll leave it here anyway just in case some new player is looking for the info:

"Medium" means medium rate of fire. That is, how fast you will expend the total amount of shells determined by "duration".

"Short duration" means a low number of shells. Exact number of shells depends on the asset and apparently some random factor.

4 guns means that you multiply the above by 4.

So, assuming that "short duration" for this asset means 10 rounds, we get:

10 rounds x 4 guns = 40 rounds, delivered at a "medium" rate of fire.

[John Kettler]

Der Alte Fritz,

Recently, I came across an analysis I did of this issue for CMBN or CMFI (forget which), but offhand, I don't recall the keyword to find it. The thread had something to do with artillery ROF, expressed as shells fired, by artillery types, as a function of fire intensity. Regrettably, right now I'm mentally foggy and it's hot in here, so either someone else needs to find it or you will need to be patient with me.

mjkerner,

What a strange table! The figures for getting Indirect fire from a sIG 33 unit and a Brummbar unit are hugely different, though the core weapon is practically identical. Wakarimasen. I don't understand! I can see how there might be some delta (a couple of minutes) favoring the towed weapon, but would also note the AFV crew isn't having to pick up 90 lb shells from the ground.

The table, which wrongly lists the 150mm Brummbar as 210mm, shows, in the baseline case, 7 minutes for the sIG 33 platoon vs 19 minutes for the Brummbar battery!

Then, we have the remarkable 105mm medium and 15cm heavy howitzer batteries, both evidently armed with sFH 18s (105 should be leFH 18) and the complete absence of the 105mm gun (sK 18). The Nebelwerfer stuff is way worse than that. Please see info here and compare with table.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebelwerfer

Nor is the unit descriptor right, as you can clearly see here. There is not a single instance in this Wehrmacht Nebelwerfer ORBAT in which the term leichte Werfer Batterie or anything remotely like it appears. Nor is it in the companion study of SS Nebelwerfer units. In what universe is a 6" projectile, let alone something with the very high HE load of a rocket vs a shell, light?

http://orbat.com/site/sturmvogel/werfer.html

http://sturmvogel.orbat.com/ss-nebelwerfer.html

I don't know whence came so many obvious errors in the table, but there's a problem here that needs to be addressed.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Der Alte Fritz]

John, what would we do without you!

My interest in this stems from this thread on Armchair General and the desire to create an artillery centred scenario.

http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135327

[Der Alte Fritz]

Well to give meaning to this thread here is map of 5th Army's artillery plan for the 22nd June 1944 which shows an accurate layout of the German defences and then the Soviet artillery plan to defeat them. You do have to know Soviet Tactical Symbols to understand it though but I am sure that John and I can answer any questions.

"It is the artillery Fire Groups for the 5th Army (3rd Belorussian Front) for its attack on 22nd June 1944 during Operation Bagration to the south of Vitebsk. 5th Army is composed of 3 Rifle Corps (45, 65, 72 RC) and the 3rd Guards Breakthrough Artillery Division.

Solid green areas = AR Destruction Group = Corps Group - HP Howitzers

Red Outline = ADD Long Range Group = 152 Gun/How and 122 Guns

Red Centre = Bombardment Group = 152 & 122 howitzers 120mm mortars

Red Hatched = Rocket Group = BM-13 and M30 launchers

Green Hatched = Army/Corps AT Reserve Group = 76mm field guns mainly

Green Outline = Infantry Support Group = 76mm field guns, mortars & 122m howitzers

So on the Soviet side of the lines, you can see where these various groups are placed in relation to the front line and then on the German side of the line, you can see what is being targeted by these groups as the coloured symbols correspond to the groups above.

The scale would indicate that the main German HKL (around 600m of trenches) is represented by the single line of the main line and the B Stellung (Artillery protective trench is the broken heavy lines under the rear most Soviet Rocket fire) and then the artillery zone is behind this at around 3km or greater from the front line.

So the bulk of the Soviet fire is falling on the HKL and some fire on the HKF with only the German guns being engaged by the Long Range Group."

[Der Alte Fritz]

This is a really good article (in Russian but Google translates quite well)

http://militera.lib.ru/science/peredelsky_ge and the illustrations are excellent.

Here is a plan showing the different phases of the artillery bombardment for every major operation in the war:

[Der Alte Fritz]

Here is where I have got to with the Soviet guns. The final column shows the number of shells in a Beokomplet (standard combat issue) for 1941 and 1945.

[Der Alte Fritz]

Here is the finished Soviet Artillery Data Sheet

[Der Alte Fritz]

You will notice that CMRT ammunition allowances do NOT match historic ones (called Beokomplet) and vary considerably.

The next stage is to produce a handy guide to typical Soviet artillery usage to convert historic data into CMRT units and fire missions as the click of a button.

[c3k]

Very nice!

[Fizou]

Yeah, nice work DAF!

[Der Alte Fritz]

Summary of 11th Guards Army attack during Operation Bagration

36th Guards Rifle Corps

8th Guards Rifle Corps

16th Guards Rifle Corps

[Der Alte Fritz]

The guns supporting each part of the attack are given in this table:

The same information in Russian which adds a few details:

We have the fire plans for Bagration 11 Guards Army in the table I posted earlier (showing all the fire plans for the major attacks during the war) To find out what made up each of these segments we can look at this table which is from the Oder-Vistula Operation and see what made up each of the elements such as FIRE ATTACK etc.

[Der Alte Fritz]

The only other information that we need if what each group of guns was firing at and where the guns were positioned behind their own lines. I have posted this before but here it is again for completeness' sake:

5th Army position of Fire Groupings on 23rd June 1944 and their relevant targets. Note the German HKL is shown as a single line and the B Stellung 2000m behind it as a broken line on the left hand side only, with artillery positions behind it.

[Der Alte Fritz]

So although I have probably bamboozled you with loads of data, it should be possible to work out a small scale artillery attack and then accompanying barrage in CMRT terms.

For most Soviet attacks, they would be accompanied by a single or later on a double barrage and so to determine the actual scale and extent of this would be good for scenario purposes.

[John Kettler]

Der Alte Fritz,

Bombarded, not bamboozled!

Outstanding stuff, which deserves to be in the CM Wiki/Wikia. The Russian chart in your No. 18 is of considerable interest to me because it shows, at a glance, which unit's doing what in terms of attack role. Am talking about the units per se, rather than the fire support, which is keyed to the combat task, which is influenced by terrain and expected resistance.

For example, in the top 3 km wide attack zone, the 97th Guards Rifle Regiment is attacking with two battalions up and one in reserve. This is a full-on attack, as is that of the identically postured 99th GRR. Based on where its battalions are, the 99th Guards Rifle Regiment has only one battalion in the attack, which strongly suggests it's a demonstration or spoiling attack.

Armed with a basic understanding of which GRR is doing what, we can now look at fire support assets and begin to draw useful military conclusions. One thing leapt off the page without having to consult your table translation. The 97th's 36 x 120mm mortars are overwhelmingly powerful relative to the relatively minuscule GRR fire support, yet are there to support the Guards Rifle Battalions. This is reinforced by discovering this is an Army Mortar Regiment, which means it was deliberately put there by the Army commander or higher. Clearly, the objective here is to deliver crushing and rapid fire. A Mortar Regiment supporting the lowly GRBs! In turn, the Mortar Regiment shooting in the GRBs is backed by an entire 24-gun M38 122mm Howitzer Regiment which is operating in Direct Support of the 97th. At this scale, the kind of firepower being delivered on the foe is practically incomprehensible to the Landser, considering the typical Rifle Regiment had a 76mm field gun battery (4 guns, usually employing Direct Fire) and some 82mm mortars.

By contrast, the 95th has hardly any fire support assets, relative to its siblings, allocated to its one attacking battalion, and the GRR itself has a mere 24 76mm ZIS-3s in a Light Artillery Regiment.

The 99th GRR is no slouch, but its firepower is decidedly second chair in comparison to the 97th's. There is no way in which 8 x 76mm ZIS-3 and 4 x 122mm M38s in DS of two GRBs attacking can remotely compete with 36 x 120mm mortars. And while it's true the 99th is backed by (trumpets blare) a Guards Artillery Regiment, note that it came from a Division, not an Army. 24 x ZIS-3 and 12 x M38 don't have the same clout or defense shattering capability of 28 122mm M38 howitzers.

For context, the organic DIVARTY for a Rifle Division was typically 2 x ZIS-3 Light Artillery Battalions and 1 x Howitzer Battalion.

What have we learned, to a first approximation? The 97th GRR is spearheading not merely the attack of 31 Guards Rifle Division, but of 16 Guards Rifle Corps! The same analytical approach, applied to the entire 11 Guards Army, will doubtless reveal where 11 GA is making its main effort.

Again, it looks as though the 97th GRR leads the way. No other formation at that level disposes of that kind of fire support horsepower. It's true that 8 GRC has an enormous artillery park, but it's equally true that all those deeply echeloned fire support assets could be rapidly chopped to support the 97th. In any case, it's very clear that the main event for 11 GA is taking place in either 16 GRC or 8 GRC sector, with 36 GRC being but a sideshow. Further, where 16 GRC is leading with an entire GRD on a 3 km front, poor 8 GRC has but a GRR attacking on a 2.5 km front. It is odd to me that 36 GRC has eye-watering fire support allocated to it, but I suspect this will be found to be the result of where the railroad net is in the 11 GA zone of operation. Much of the artillery park at Army and above has the reach to operate across even Corps boundaries and engage deep targets as needed. This is certainly true of the Super Power Artillery Brigades and railway guns (from Artillery of the RVGK).

In any event, per the Russian doctrine in place during the GPW and through the Cold War, the name of the game is to bore or smash a hole through the defense with Rifle formations. To do this, whatever unit makes the breakthrough will get pretty much everything from successively higher formations to create a gap through which the tanks can roll.

Again, tremendous work!

Regards,

John Kettler

[DavidFields]

Does anyone have a table showing what the various parameters for artillery mean?

ie. A Medium strike for short duration with 4 guns delivers what?

I have a pathetic piece of paper next to my computer, which is a chart from Martin Krejcirik, to the response of a thread in CMBN, Duration of artillery missions. It gives me data on the US 60mm, 81mm, and 105mm. That should be able to search for, and it gives me some idea about the different weapons systems.

This thread has now given me info on the Russian artillery, which I have printed out.

But it is unclear to me why this should be hidden. I don't understand the FOW considerations with this issue.

[John Kettler]

Finally found the blasted (couldn't resist) fire density analysis I did! It's in my No. 17 here.

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?p=1372409&highlight=john+kettler+artillery#post1372409

May I invite someone more skilled than I am (not hard to be) at Forum technics and who hasn't been awake for some 36 hours to please put up the block quote containing the relevant material?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Der Alte Fritz]

There you go John

Broadsword,

Using the relevant portion of the chart from the CM Wiki

US 105mm M2A1 Howitzer

Mission: Harass | Light | Medium | Heavy

Rate of fire: 46-48 | 28-32 | 16-19 | 10-12

Duration: Q S M | Q S M | Q S M | Q S M

Rounds: 3 6 14 | 2 7 12 | 3 6 12 | 2 6 12

If we take your first case, the gun crews are going flat out (best rate 6 rds/min/gun). The bottom listing "Rounds" should really read "Time (in minutes)." At Quick, FFE duration is 2 minutes, at Short, 6 minutes and at Medium, 12 minutes. To get three minutes of FFE at Heavy, you'll need to issue a Cease Fire roughly halfway through a Short mission. Assuming battery volleys, this'll cost you 72 rounds (18 per gun x 4 guns).

If you reduce the fire density to Medium, and you fire at Quick, you'll get three minutes of FFE, at somewhere in the ~4-5 rds/min/gun, or ~48-60 rounds expended, using rounded off numbers.

It would be much easier if you could issue a fire order like this: "Target: road junction; single gun, harassing fire, 10 minutes." Then you'd know how long you'd have FFE coverage. Or. "Target: Attacking infantry; battery volley, max rate until I order otherwise." The first would drizzle roughly one round a minute on that junction, making life miserable for, say, softskins and open topped vehicles. The other would bring down 24 rounds a minute on those swarming infantry until you either issued a Cease Fire or exhausted your ammunition supply. In practice, field artillery can shoot at maximum rate for only a few minutes, after which it settles down to its sustained rate. For example, 155s can fire two rds/min at max rate for a couple of minutes, after which it reverts to one rd/min sustained rate, which can be kept up for hours on end, until the guns glow and their paint blisters.

Hope this clears thing up a bit--if I properly interpreted the chart, that is. I generally shoot Medium intensity missions, at Medium duration, for the kinds of pain I wish to inflict, up to and including killing a Panther sitting on an objective. Thanks to the chart, I'm going to make some changes in how I do my my shoots in the future. To kill something, volume of fire per unit time matters, so a Heavy mission, battery volleys and a Quick duration may be the way to go. 48 rounds delivered over two minutes will ruin just about anything they hit. Not to mention looking spectacular!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Der Alte Fritz]

As with all Soviet attacks of this period, the centre of the attack is just off to one side of the JOINT of TWO Armies. To the south is the 31st Army who launch a heavy supporting attack along the northern bank of the river with its 71st Rifle Corps as shown in this map

This has another 11 Guards Army supporting attack by 36th GRC just to the north.

The main point of penetration was supposed to be just north of here, in the area of the 8th GRC which is shown in the Russian diagram in post Nr.18 at the Middle of the table. There is a less heavy attack by the 16th GRC to the north of this again in support.

The next Army northwards, the 5th Army also launches a spoiling attack.

But the plan when wrong and the 71st, 36th Guards nor the 8 Guards managed to breakthrough but the 16th did so because the German 78th Sturm had drawn off so many men to meet the main attack down by the river and railway line.

So returning to the diagram, the main point of the attack is at the bottom and it gets weaker as you move up the diagram. (You can see the scale of support in the tables in post Nr. 17 shows the 8 GRC gets over 400 tonnes of fire per km compared to 300 for the 36th GRC and 250 for the 16th.

The key to the diagram is the Regiments as you can see that they attack side by side on fairly equal sectors, the battalions are slotted into the attack as is deemed convenient for local conditions.

16th attacks with 1 Division and 1 in support (If I remember correctly the third division was in Army reserve. )

8th attacks with 1 Division and 2 in support - a column of 3 Divisions

36th attacks with 2 Divisions side by side and 1 in support

71st attacks with 2 Divisions side by side and 1 in support