Who were the good guys? (O/T )

[Ashez]

I'm not sure if you are referring to Putin or Assange, but it doesn't matter. Having a lot to say does not make one worth listening to.

You can't make a coup near Russia border (and use mainly nazi-related element to enforce its success) and ignore Putin. He simply has more ways to ruin Ukraine than you can imagine (some of them costly though). But well...the overheard words of your own diplomat ("**** the EU") prove Putin is not the only one you want to ignore. And it is not a way to go in a long run...

I thought about the matter again i dont think that it would be possible for any army to sucessfully wage a war on the scale of the war in iraq without producing significant collateral damage

Similary we can assume the 11 September was a collateral damage coming from US Mid_East policy failures?

And how can you say the war was 'successful' if it replaced non-enemy with enemies, destabilized the region, strenghtened Iran, allowed creation of large sharia-governed country (ISIS) and on top of this it incited even greater Muslim hatred towards US?

EDIT: I really think it is EOT from me, at least concerning Mid_East

[agusto]

Similary we can assume the 11 September was a collateral damage coming from US Mid_East policy failures?

That doesnt have anything to do with my post.

And how can you say the war was 'successful' if it replaced non-enemy with enemies, destabilized the region, strenghtened Iran, allowed creation of large sharia-governed country (ISIS) and on top of this it incited even greater Muslim hatred towards US?

I wasnt talking about politics. I was talking about one large armed force overwhelming another large armed force within a compareably densily populated country.

[sburke]

At least it dies with a strong accent. Maybe one or two of them will stop asking 'why?' when next thing blows up within US borders.

So Ashez, where are you from that is so free of having ever done anything to wrong anyone that you can feel justified in suggesting 9/11 was somehow a thing America brought on itself? Shangri-La?

[Nidan1]

Hi Mom!!!!

[JasonC]

Ashez - wildly off topic and doesn't belong here. But not to let misinformation pass unchallenged, the reference of the "screw the EU" remark was the EU brokered compromise deal for the old president remaining in power with elections put off until the end of the year. The US state department saw that the activists in Kiev were not going to go for that after 80 dead, nor was the parliament, and that backing those two, rather than trying to force them to "compromise" with folks with no intention of honoring anything or refraining from the use of force, was the better play. Basically the EU process was a dead letter within 24 hours; the undiplomatic diplomat's comment was merely explaining that reality.

[Ashez]

Basically the EU process was a dead letter within 24 hours; the undiplomatic diplomat's comment was merely explaining that reality.

You are wrong. The process was well and the agreement was reached. What happened is that a very small but armed forces (activists lol) refused to accept agreement and conducted a coup. They forced new acts with direct threats to parliament members and tried to kill Yanukovitch. The majority of protesting people had nothing to do with it, they became mere observers at this point.

While it may serve the purpose for a while it is already backfiring. You can't give a power to a political organization many people call 'nazi' (your 'activists') and pretend nothing really happened. Their first parliamentary act was against the russian language, hard to imagine worse start.

I do not think it also possible to conduct democratic reforms on Ukraine without dividing the country and frankly I do not think there is a way to ease the tensions.

The recent events are -no doubt - a defeat for Russia, whether the CIA (as Russia claims) was involved or not. But it is just a beginning. Russia can ruin Ukraine with cutting off natural gas supplies -or just increasing the prices. And current Ukrainian economy is broken and the state is on the edge of bancrupcy.

There will be an international help but I am sure any amount of money can vanish in a bottomless well of corruption in a country where it is commonly accepted and viewed as normal.

But not to let misinformation pass unchallenged

You are the one who spreads misinformation. The "f*u*c*k EU" remark surfaced on the 7th of February while the agreement was signed exactly two weeks later. But nice try to justify it.

[Sgt Joch]

On Iraq, by most accounts, US/UK forces were directly responsible for the deaths of 10-15,000 civilians. Of course, they were not deliberately targeting civilians and were in fact trying to minimise civilian casualties as much as possible. However, in the circumstances of the conflict, where it was hard to distinguish the combatants from the civilians, it is difficult to see how the civilian casualties could have been substantially lower.

You can contrast that with the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in 1979-89 where an estimated 850,000-1,500,000 civilians died or almost 100 times as many. However, the Russians were deliberately targeting civilians, massacring large numbers, destroying entire villages and causing many, many, many "atrocities".

That is the difference between the " good guys" and the " bad guys".

[Ashez]

So Ashez, where are you from that is so free of having ever done anything to wrong anyone that you can feel justified in suggesting 9/11 was somehow a thing America brought on itself? Shangri-La?

Sorry, -with all due respect - I do not think you are capable of the normal conversation with attitude you keep displaying. I might suggest however you start with following:

1.'postcolonialism - middle east'

2.' US Middle East policy during presidency of Lyndon B. Johnson'.

That is the difference between the " good guys" and the " bad guys".

No, the difference is that 'good guys' don't invade and ruin independent countries. You compare two evils (even if one them was greater). And of course. I do not condemn average soldier - a decent man doing his job. I do condemn however your politicians and commanders (who were supposed to prevent bad things from happening and certainly not trying to hide it from the public).

[Sgt Joch]

Man, I have to admit this is pretty bad:

-1984, the entire population of Kaz-Aziz-Kham: 72 men, women and children were rounded up and executed. (pp. 44-45)

-march 11-18, 1985, up to 1,000 civilians were killed in reprisal operations against 12 villages in the Langham district. Apparently, many children were locked up in houses and burned to death. (pp. 46-47)

http://afghanistanjusticeproject.org/warcrimesandcrimesagainsthumanity19782001.pdf

[JasonC]

Ashez - I for one answer communist tyrants with force, not words. You are welcome.

[Ashez]

Ashez - I for one answer communist tyrants with force, not words. You are welcome.

Thank you for your meaningful input in the discussion. You have been heard.

[agusto]

Recently i played a galactic scale sci-fi grand strategy game and when one time a world inhabited by intelligent amphibious aliens refused to be assimilated into my glorious empire of cybernetic organisms, i sent a fleet to poison their atmosphere, burn their forrests, set ablaze their citys, melt their polar ice caps and then vaporize their oceans. And as the last of their kind died in anguish on the worthless piece of rubble once called 'home' by someone, i had my cruisers radioactively contaminate the world so that no living beeing may exists there for the next billion years.

[Childress]

Thank you for your meaningful input in the discussion. You have been heard.

Ashez, I salute your persistence!

My Russian friend, university educated, grew up in Moscow during the 80s. He's 50 years old. His father, a former boxer, worked for Pravda and ran a theater in the city. He knocked out one of Stalin's drunken sons in a bar fight- without repercussions. So.... his family was Nomenklatura.

Last week we were watching a PBS colorized documentary on the Second World War. For him it was one revelation after another. He was taught that the advance of the USSR into Poland in '39 was to protect the Poles. Lend-lease? Never heard of it. Russians were taught that the turning point of the war was Kursk, not Stalingrad or the Battle of Moscow. The atrocities in the Katyn Forest were perpetrated by the Germans. And on and on. He was aware of the mass rapes committed by the conquering Red Army, apparently a source of amusement for Russians at the time.

[agusto]

Last week we were watching a PBS colorized documentary on the Second World War. For him it was one revelation after another. He was taught that the advance of the USSR into Poland in '39 was to protect the Poles. Lend-lease? Never heard of it. Russians were taught that the turning point of the war was Kursk, not Stalingrad or the Battle of Moscow. The atrocities in the Katyn Forest were perpetrated by the Germans. And on and on. He was aware of the mass rapes committed by the conquering Red Army, apparently a source of amusement for Russians at the time.

Interesting, isnt it? How people who grew up in different cultures see the same events in completely different colours. Didnt he have any doubts that what he saw was 'propaganda' or something similar? After all, he grew up during the Cold War in a country where the US were the demonized enemy.

[Childress]

Didnt he have any doubts that what he saw was 'propaganda'?

Nope. He was thoroughly educated with lies. He once caused a scandal in high school when he pointed out that nearly the entire leadership of the early Soviet Union was Jewish. A thought crime for which he was nearly expelled. His father rescued him.

[DMS]

Interesting, isnt it? How people who grew up in different cultures see the same events in completely different colours. Didnt he have any doubts that what he saw was 'propaganda' or something similar? After all, he grew up during the Cold War in a country where the US were the demonized enemy.

The thing is that your point of view may be propaganda as well.

[Ashez]

-->Childress

And this is why it so important to accumulate knowledge and confront all sides of events.

"We liberated Iraq and freed the people". Is this kind of propaganda different? You think you are somehow immune to manipulation? You were all lied into belief that Husein had chemical and biological weapons! That's the lie of the decade - all 'containers' and 'mobile labolatories' were drawn by Pentagon hired illustrators. And still many of you disregard information from different sources.

[Childress]

The thing is that your point of view may be propaganda as well.

That's undeniable. Stalin once said that no regime can survive without its own Intelligensia. As well as nourishing myths. These are now subject to deconstruction in Western schools.

Soviet students were exceedingly well educated in the sciences and math. Instruction in history was worthless, literature twisted to conform to the regnant nostrums. My friend's most painful scholastic recollections were having to read and master the works of Lenin, Marx and other communist theorists. He found them stupefyingly boring. They crushed your soul... which was maybe the intent.

[agusto]

The thing is that your point of view may be propaganda as well.

The truth, by the meaning of statements about reality, can never be determined with absolute certainety. Every person lives within his or her own reality, constructed by the mind, based on the things a person perceived in life. And we all have lived our own, unique lives and we all have perceived our own, unique experiences. The best thing we can do to figure out whats most propably real and what is most propably not is to find a compromise between our own and other peoples perceptions and to avoid logically incorrect conclusions. Logic though, per definition, doesnt make statements about wich statements about reality are true and wich are not. It only makes statments about the correctness of conclusions, independet of the truth of the premisses. So, after all, we will always have to live with a certain degree of uncertainness. Nothing can be done about it.

[Sgt Joch]

-->Childress

And this is why it so important to accumulate knowledge and confront all sides of events.

"We liberated Iraq and freed the people". Is this kind of propaganda different? You think you are somehow immune to manipulation? You were all lied into belief that Husein had chemical and biological weapons! That's the lie of the decade - all 'containers' and 'mobile labolatories' were drawn by Pentagon hired illustrators. And still many of you disregard information from different sources.

Unlike the Russians who did such a great job in Afghanistan, totally destabilising the country so that it was taken over by Bin Laden and Al Qaida.

BTW did I mention the systemic carpet bombing of Afghan villages that was carried out by the Russian Air force?

At least Iraq is now a semi-functioning democracy. What was the Russian plan in Afghanistan? Ah yes, imposing a Dictatorship.

There is an old saying that people who live in glass houses should not throw stones.

[Splinty]

-->Childress

And this is why it so important to accumulate knowledge and confront all sides of events.

"We liberated Iraq and freed the people". Is this kind of propaganda different? You think you are somehow immune to manipulation? You were all lied into belief that Husein had chemical and biological weapons! That's the lie of the decade - all 'containers' and 'mobile labolatories' were drawn by Pentagon hired illustrators. And still many of you disregard information from different sources.

Not true Ashez, Saddam's Chemical labs were found not "mobile labs", actual laboratories, along with hundreds of artillery and mortar shells waiting to be loaded with chemicals, His chief scientists were captured, and loads of precursor materials used to make Tabun and Sarin gas too. Saddam had indeed gotten rid of all his stockpile, he was just laying low until the UN went away.

Although you will probably dismiss this as anecdotal, I'm both a Desert Storm vet and an Iraqi Freedom vet, and in Desert Storm I was a squad leader with the 1st Armored Division and was in the fight with the Iraqi Republican Guard. After the battle of Medina Ridge was over and the cease fire was called, my unit was clearing the area where the Medina Division had stood and died, in 3 different bunkers we found crates of 120mm mortar rounds containing chemical agents. Sohe definitely still had them in the early 90's.

[BLSTK]

Call me Nostradamus.

With what's going on in the Crimea, we may have CM: Siege of Sevastopol sooner than we think.

[agusto]

The truth, by the meaning of statements about reality, can never be determined with absolute certainety. Every person lives within his or her own reality, constructed by the mind, based on the things a person perceived in life. And we all have lived our own, unique lives and we all have perceived our own, unique experiences. The best thing we can do to figure out whats most propably real and what is most propably not is to find a compromise between our own and other peoples perceptions and to avoid logically incorrect conclusions. Logic though, per definition, doesnt make statements about wich statements about reality are true and wich are not. It only makes statments about the correctness of conclusions, independet of the truth of the premisses. So, after all, we will always have to live with a certain degree of uncertainness. Nothing can be done about it.

Lets look at a situation where you look at a fruit bowl and you see that there are only two apples lieing in said fruit bowl. But are there really only two apples inside the fruit bowl? It may be that, from your perspective, the two apples are alligned in a way so that a possible third apple is hidden behind the two apples lieing in front of it. You can help yourself by looking at the fruit bowl from a different angle and you may or may not find a third apple. But is it certain now that there are only two apples in the fruit bowl? There could be a plum below the two apples. Again, you could take actions to aquire more information about the situation and you could continue playing that game for an infinite amount of time. But if you do that, you are never going actually eat of the apples, so if you are trying to aquire information about the content of the fruitbowl in order to figure out if it can be used as food source, you will have to stop gathering information at some point and simply start eating.

The conclusion that can be drawn from that metaphor is that, in order to to be able to act in any given situation, one must at some point stop analysing the situation, accept the uncertainety and make do with the information available.

[Childress]

Call me Nostradamus.

With what's going on in the Crimea, we may have CM: Siege of Sevastopol sooner than we think.

You're clearly referring to these quatrains:

The "Aquilon" Wind will cause the siege to be raised,

Over the walls to throw ashes, lime and dust:

Through rain afterwards, which will do them much worse,

Last help against their frontier.

Naval battle night will be overcome,

Fire in the ships to the West ruin:

New trick, the great ship colored,

Anger to the vanquished, and victory in a drizzle.

The situation in Sevastopol is murky, the strategic port belonging to Ukraine but leased by the Russians. N appears to suggest NATO intervention. Any other requests? Will Rihanna and Chris Brown get back together? Will the Seahawks repeat? I'll pass them along.

[BLSTK]

Lets look at a situation where you look at a fruit bowl ...

Sometimes a banana is just a banana.