Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 You stilll did not enlighten us on what "atrocities" you think coaliton forces committed. You really shouldn't have asked about it. You could start over internet and browse a bit. There are a lot of videos and pictures made both by military and cilvilians in Iraq. I witnessed a lot of phone/tank/apache camera movies involving killing civilians - just make an effort. Of course you will not find it on Fox news or CNN. If you need a guidance, there we go: WARNING: some of this stuff is really drastic, maybe not for soldier but for others for sure. For a good starter: "Come on! Let us shoot" -incident I mentioned earlier, from wikileaks. Killing journalists was not enough, people trying to pick up bodies and wounded were also engaged. Some more stuff: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRpREcx1F50 http://vimeo.com/33755968 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A45313-2004Dec7.html http://www.globalpolicy.org/invasion-and-war/atrocities-and-criminal-homicides-.html http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/16924 http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2014/02/19/Former-U-S-soldier-jailed-for-Iraq-atrocities-dies-.html http://www.truth-out.org/archive/item/88996:iraq-vets-coverage-of-atrocities-is-too-little-too-late http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-british-military-in-iraq-a-legacy-of-war-crimes-and-atrocities/20878 http://www.worldcantwait.net/index.php/features/g-i-resistance/6737-ethan-mccord-from-atrocities-in-iraq-to-resisting-us-wars http://warisacrime.org/content/new-photos-released-iraq-atrocity-documents-and-video http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_International_Criminal_Court_and_the_2003_invasion_of_Iraq http://www.aljazeera.com/news/americas/2014/02/former-us-soldier-guilty-rape-found-hanged-201421943623992645.html http://www.infowars.com/iraq-vet-kills-himself-after-being-ordered-to-commit-war-crimes/ http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2010/10/wiki-o25.html http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2010/10/wiki-o25.html http://www.ikners.com/2011/12/27/new-photos-released-of-iraq-atrocity-with-documents-and-video-by-david-swanson-warning-gruesome-photos/ http://www.amazon.com/In-Name-Democracy-American-Project/dp/0805079696 And a video of killing a group probably trying to drop away a weapon. Finishing of the wounded included. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_post-invasion_Iraq It is only a top of the iceberg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 You stilll did not enlighten us on what "atrocities" you think coaliton forces committed. Actually there are several documented incidents where coalition combat troops commited war crimes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahmudiyah_killings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kandahar_massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_M._Horne_Jr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Behenna http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_E._Hatley http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corey_R._Clagett http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagram_Theater_Detention_Facility http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvin_Gibbs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Passaro http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Pittman And those are just the ones that have their own Wikipedia articles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am not going to get sucked any further into this as war is never a good thing. Period. However Ashez I think you do need to be able to differentiate between tragedies and atrocities. In a war largely fought in built up urban areas with an adversary that doesn't just try to hide amongst the civilian population but deliberately creates the conditions to drag them into the line of fire (when they aren't just deliberately blowing them up themselves) this is difficult in the extreme to avoid. To then extropolate that out as atrocities committed by the coalition forces is a disservice to those men and women and to the search for the truth. Sure you can search the web and find stuff that you believe will bolster your view, but beware as the internet is a great highway for diseminating BS just as much as truth. It is still beholden on the viewer to sift though it and verify what it is really saying. Otherwise you are no better than Fox News. As for Agusto's links, the couple I looked at are all serving time for their crimes. Time.. as in jail.... Yeah I think I saw an article where Bin Laden locked up one of his guys for killing an innocent bystander, and uh yeah Hitler and Stalin too. Uh yeah right. To be honest all these links tell me is folks are looking for examples of situations which you will absolutely find in any war. However the examples themselves are more showing they are the exceptions rather than the rule. Frankly, that is about as good as you will ever get in a war zone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I am not going to get sucked any further into this as war is never a good thing. Period. However Ashez I think you do need to be able to differentiate between tragedies and atrocities. In a war largely fought in built up urban areas with an adversary that doesn't just try to hide amongst the civilian population but deliberately creates the conditions to drag them into the line of fire (when they aren't just deliberately blowing them up themselves) this is difficult in the extreme to avoid. To then extropolate that out as atrocities committed by the coalition forces is a disservice to those men and women and to the search for the truth. Sure you can search the web and find stuff that you believe will bolster your view, but beware as the internet is a great highway for diseminating BS just as much as truth. It is still beholden on the viewer to sift though it and verify what it is really saying. Otherwise you are no better than Fox News. Sburke, read my post. All listed incidents were deliberate killings of unarmed persons or civillians and almost all were confirmed by US officials Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I think this is where this thread is about to veer off the ole' oval race track roll multiple times and land on a couple spectators. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 ...and the "destabilization of the region" myself. Please enlighten us. Sorry, I did not notice that part. I do not want to elaborate on things that are rather obvious, you can make your own research. Just to point out some things: Husein was the only entity controlling the country. While human rights were violated, the population lived in a relative peace, stability and even prosperity. During the war and under the occupation Iraq suffered enormous loses, over 100.000 had died. Now the country is weak and torn by infighting between various religious groups. The quality of life is very low with poverty and frequent bomb explosions. Iraq was a counterbalance to Iran. It is no longer. And Iran's policy clearly reflects it. On top of this large parts of western Iraq and Syria are currently under control of Islamic State of Iraq and Sham" – ISIS or "Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant" – ISIL - organization so radical that even Al-Qaeda demands moderation from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Sburke, read my post. All listed incidents were deliberate killings of unarmed persons or civillians and almost all were confirmed by US officials Nope, sorry not getting sucked into this. It is a no win. It is a war zone. To say there were never any incidents would absolutely be rubbish. No question about it. You have hundred of thousands of allied combatants there alone. That is hundreds of thousands of people armed to the teeth. To think that all of those hundreds of thousands are going to be able to function in an absolutely insane environment with no repercussions would be stupid. However I refuse to be a part of painting all of those soldiers with a broad brush as seems to be where this is headed. War sucks. What it does to any human involved is unspeakable. However sometimes the alternatives are worse and society has to expose some of it's young men and women to an environment none of us would wish our children, friends or neighbors to experience. I can not in good conscience denigrate them without wondering how I'd behave under those conditions and not having been truly tested that way, I can not say. I would like to think I am a decent person who would stand by my moral convictions, but until one has actually faced those conditions I don't think any of us truly know. And just to say it, I have been faced with the choice of giving up my own freedom in defence of others and can say I did actually follow my convictions and spent a fair amount of time in a US Federal prison. As far as I am concerned that was a cake walk compared to what our troops there face. No one was shooting at me and setting off IEDs, I didn't have to worry if some kid was pointing me out as a target or if that guy with the cell phone was using it as a detonator. I didn't watch my friends get maimed or killed trying to help restore civil affairs to a country falling apart at the seams. While our code of conduct requires we prosecute those who have violated the law, I will not judge those who faced those conditions and lost their way. We asked too much and must own the failure belongs to all of us. That is a whole different subject than what this thread started with which was a state sponsored level of genocide and folks willingness to be an active part of it (a la Saddam Hussein). This was a bad idea for a thread to begin with and it has only gotten worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 -->sburke Read my both posts again and stop doing this. Because what you are doing is not just a plain denial. The world already saw it all. You can't erase it. Bad things already happened in Iraq, and the current situation at Mid-East is crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 -->sburke Read my both posts again and stop doing this. Because what you are doing is not just a plain denial. The world already saw it all. You can't erase it. Bad things already happened in Iraq, and the current situation at Mid-East is crap. So you can say with absolute certainty how you would perform under those conditions? Tell me what are the traumatic challenges you have faced that give you such certainty. Get sent to bed without dinner, find out you are short a few bucks and can't pre order CM:RT? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Get sent to bed without dinner, find out you are short a few bucks and can't pre order CM:RT? TBH I am waiting for download -only version -can't find any so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 TBH I am waiting for download -only version -can't find any so far. LOL fair enough Touche Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 However I refuse to be a part of painting all of those soldiers with a broad brush as seems to be where this is headed. I did neither intend nor do that and i agree with you that this wouldnt be meaningful. ---the rest of your post--- Deliberatly closing your eyes in front of the evidence and trying to rationalize away what happened isnt very meaningful either. So you can say with absolute certainty how you would perform under those conditions? Tell me what are the traumatic challenges you have faced that give you such certainty. Get sent to bed without dinner, find out you are short a few bucks and can't pre order CM:RT? First, it doesnt matter how i would perform under any circumstances. Second, i can not possibly imagine any scenario where it would be justifieable for a group of US soldiers to kill a whole family, rape the 14 year old daughter and then kill her too (No.1 incident in the list i posted above). And the US military court shares my opinion. Third, the fact that combat stress may contribute to potentially dangerous people actually commiting crimes can only serve as help to prevent future crimes, not as 'salvation' for crimes already commited IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Yo For a good starter: "Come on! Let us shoot" -incident I mentioned earlier, from wikileaks. Killing journalists was not enough, people trying to pick up bodies and wounded were also engaged. For some reason, I thought you would post that one. What the video does not show is that U.S. soldiers from the 2-16 had been pinned down just 100 meters from there most of the morning by gunfire, probably coming from the first group. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/July_12,_2007_Baghdad_airstrike An unfortunate incident to be sure, but well within the rules of engagement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Actually there are several documented incidents where coalition combat troops commited war crimes: And those are just the ones that have their own Wikipedia articles. Agreed, most qualify as war crimes, but they were all isolated incidents and the perpretators were prosecuted and punished. However, they were not in any way "atrocities" like, for example, the deliberate killing of 2,500,000 Soviet soldiers in 1941-42 by the Germans. Anyone who looks at the record objectively will see that US/UK forces in Iraq carried out their mission very professionally with minimal civilian causalties compared to most wars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Anyone who looks at the record objectively will see that US/UK forces in Iraq carried out their mission very professionally with minimal civilian causalties compared to most wars. It is simply not truth. Watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRpREcx1F50 ...and trying to justify murderers in Apache from wikileaks video is just LOW. Did you see the second part (in one of those videos) with the same crew? How they destroy the building with Hellfire with pedestrian coming nearby. Whom are you trying to defend? Criminals in uniforms? Also note how the video differs from official report. From those videos only you can see what kind of lie military reports are. However, they were not in any way "atrocities" like, for example, the deliberate killing of 2,500,000 Soviet soldiers in 1941-42 by the Germans. /sarcasm on/ Sure, then why so much buzz about 3.000 dead from Septemper 11 attacks?/sarcasm off/ Double standards? Times changed. Every human deserves to live. And those who act against civilians -in any form - deserve to be condemned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Collingwood Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Oh dear. 10 chars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 This thread is nearing the end of its life cycle i guess. May it rest in peace, i will miss the discussions i had in here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 This thread is nearing the end of its life cycle i guess. May it rest in peace, i will miss the discussions i had in here. At least it dies with a strong accent. Maybe one or two of them will stop asking 'why?' when next thing blows up within US borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 A few things that should be obvious, but apparently are not to everyone: 1) The political justification for a war and the behavior of the armed forces directly engaged in the fighting of a war are two very different things. 2) Anecdotal examples do not prove or disprove a general trend. 3) Take any group of several hundred thousand people from any population in the world, demographically skewed heavily male and young, and over a period of years a certain percentage of them are going to engage in criminal activity. And that's in a peaceful environment. The fact that the US military is not magically immune to that inexorable fact does not constitute a condemnation of the institution or it's members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The fact that the US military is not magically immune to that inexorable fact does not constitute a condemnation of the institution or it's members. The soldiers of the country that declares to 'free' people from oppression should be trained and selected to have that kind of 'magical immunity'. Killing almost 1k civilians on checkpoints alone with warning procedures being a fiction (as shown on wikileaks reports) is a bad testimony. Driving a Humvee, ramming the civilian cars and shooting at random civilians is even worse (as shown on one of linked videos). And another US genuine invention to kill civilians: "bait tactics": Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 The soldiers of the country that declares to 'free' people from oppression should be trained and selected to have that kind of 'magical immunity'. Impossible, clearly, and one has nothing to do with the other. Killing almost 1k civilians on checkpoints alone with warning procedures being a fiction (as shown on wikileaks reports) is a bad testimony. Driving a Humvee, ramming the civilian cars and shooting at random civilians is even worse (as shown on one of linked videos). Relying on Julian Assange for your views of the US military is like asking Vladamir Putin about Ukraine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 Relying on Julian Assange for your views of the US military And suddenly all the data and videos he revealed become invalid? ...is like asking Vladamir Putin about Ukraine. Very bad comparison. Certainly he's got a lot to say about it. And if you claim otherwise, I dare to say you lack some knowledge about the region. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 And suddenly all the data and videos he revealed become invalid? No, they just aren't the word of God, in the same way that his labeling of the infamous Apache video as "murder" turned out to be sensationalistic nonsense. Very bad comparison. Certainly he's got a lot to say about it. And if you claim otherwise, I dare to say you lack some knowledge about the region. I'm not sure if you are referring to Putin or Assange, but it doesn't matter. Having a lot to say does not make one worth listening to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I never thought I would say this, but Vanir is absolutely right...for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted February 28, 2014 Share Posted February 28, 2014 I thought about the matter again i dont think that it would be possible for any army to sucessfully wage a war on the scale of the war in iraq without producing significant collateral damage. I also think that it would be impossible for any armed force in such a large conflict to completely avoid that some of its members commit classical war crimes. I never thought I would say this, but Vanir is absolutely right...for once. I agree. He had some good arguements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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