Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 -->Splinty I don't have a reason not to believe you - there could be some leftovers from the war against Iran. Poor casus belli anyway. At least Iraq is now a semi-functioning democracy. Pleasssse. Spare us. After all we wrote here you are still doing this. 7000 civilians dead in 2013 only - worst year since 2008. Country is in ruin. Call me Nostradamus. With what's going on in the Crimea, we may have CM: Siege of Sevastopol sooner than we think. What siege? Crimea is already in Russian hands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Sorry, -with all due respect - I do not think you are capable of the normal conversation with attitude you keep displaying. I might suggest however you start with following: 1.'postcolonialism - middle east' 2.' US Middle East policy during presidency of Lyndon B. Johnson'. I suspect I have read far more than you on US colonialism and history. Why the hell you think I did time? You can attempt to color my position on US politics, but the reality is I spent more than a bit of my youth in opposition to US policies in the Middle East amongst other places. I do not however allow one set of propaganda to replace another. I suggest you go a little further back in history if you really want to see the development of US positions in the Middle East. It begins with Standard Oil way back further than what you are reading. I noticed you actually did not answer my question but instead side stepped it. That tells me two things. One - you are not interested in having an honest discussion. You are only interested in pushing your viewpoint. Secondly it tells me you are pushing the propaganda line of another power and I can pretty much guess which one now. No wonder you don't want to own up to it. It would severely undermine all this BS. Not that it has a leg to stand on now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLSTK Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 @ Childress Nostradamus says: The Seahawks will have difficulty repeating as long as Russell Wilson insists on playing baseball. Nostradamus requests more Skittles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Secondly it tells me you are pushing the propaganda line of another power and I can pretty much guess which one now. No wonder you don't want to own up to it. It would severely undermine all this BS. Not that it has a leg to stand on now. We're done sir. Something tells me youre unable to understand someone can comprehend written material in several languages and try to reach beyond this or that propaganda. Of course I sidestepped - when I saw old thick-skinned rhino charging at me with one intention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 We're done sir. Something tells me youre unable to understand someone can comprehend written material in several languages and try to reach beyond this or that propaganda. Of course I sidestepped - when I saw old thick-skinned rhino charging at me with one intention. I'll give you this, you are good at dodging. Have a nice day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 We're done sir. Something tells me youre unable to understand someone can comprehend written material in several languages and try to reach beyond this or that propaganda. Of course I sidestepped - when I saw old thick-skinned rhino charging at me with one intention. People with an agenda usually do. It's that or you are taking a typical Pol Sci course somewhere in the Bay Area here in California. I find you incredible naïve for someone who claims to have so much knowledge regarding how the US does business in this 'innocent' world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 You are quite an extremist, Ashez. You assume your opinion is the only truth, you attack everyone who disagrees, you continously dodge all attempts of seriously discussing your points, either by errecting strawmen, straightly changing topics or simply ignoring what others say. EDIT: And BTW: actually i do agree with you on several things you wrote. I dont want to support your cause in this discussion though because you are so agressive and close-minded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 EDIT: And BTW: actually i do agree with you on several things you wrote. I dont want to support your cause in this discussion though because you are so agressive and close-minded. And other participants in this discussion are certainly open minded and ready for a prejudice - free exchange of thoughts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dadekster Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 And other participants in this discussion are certainly open minded and ready for a prejudice - free exchange of thoughts... I'm open minded...I've just heard numerous times what you are pushing is all. I've come to my own conclusions about the world which includes sources other than what mainstream American puts out. Helps to have family overseas and all. Your viewpoints can just as easily be packaged up, labeled and sorted on a shelf. What I don't appreciate is you coming in here and muddling up what this thread was initially all about and turning it into some America is the new evil empire. I am pretty sure that wasn't the original intent of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 And other participants in this discussion are certainly open minded and ready for a prejudice... And again you are dodging, attacking, ignoring and trying to errect a strawman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 What I don't appreciate is you coming in here and muddling up what this thread was initially all about and turning it into some America is the new evil empire. Of course it is lopsided point of view. Unfortunately, this is how large part of the world perceives America. You're not too popular nowadays. Maybe those of you who care should start thinking about the reasons. It must be very bad to be America's enemy if even allies your diplomacy suggests to '****'. I do have a feeling guys, your personal views are not far off from those of your diplomacy. I am pretty sure that wasn't the original intent of this thread. And what was the original intent? My first post was perfectly on subject and I was not the only one who drifted away a bit. And again you are dodging, attacking, ignoring and trying to errect a strawman. No, I am only defending - surrounded by a pack of wolves AND on their area. AND it is just all because I dared to to break their inner peace and show things they might find disturbing...I provided a lot of evidence, links, videos. And what I got in return? Statements that your military are 'good guys' because you killed less civilians than Russians did? You really believe it? How far a man can go to morally justify such actions? Invading Iraq and killing civilians was WRONG. And even political benefits for US are questionable. Regardless of the side of propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Statements that your military are 'good guys' because you killed less civilians than Russians did? Let's face it, everybody kills less civilians than the Russians do. BTW did I mention the Russians used poison gas against civilians in Afghanistan? We can start talking about Chechnya also if you wish, what is it? 200,000 civilians killed in the past 20 years? There's a hotbed of democracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Let's face it, everybody kills less civilians than the Russians do. Only outside of Africa and Asia. I do not know how many people died in South America during various internal conflicts. There's a hotbed of democracy. Democracy is not something anyone is interested in those parts of the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skwabie Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Lemme just say I somehow understand Ashez. If another country marches into your own and starts a war, the invader is going to be hated. That's just how it is. However who knows what the future holds for Iraq. IIRC there's a thing called happiness index used to measure ppl's content in their daily lives, which I think is what it's all about, and those in democratic countries have a significant margin compared to those living in (pseudo) totalitarian/tyrannic ones. If the democracy in Iraq holds out maybe it'll turn out to be better in the end. We probably won't see it in this lifetime tho.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 However who knows what the future holds for Iraq. I do not think it is looking good currently: look at Human Rights Watch report: http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2013/country-chapters/iraq?page=3 I am afraid Iraq's democracy has already its peak behind and there is noone to enforce it now. Add political and religious turmoil, Iran's neighbourhood and Islamic state covering large parts of western Iraq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 And what was the original intent? My first post was perfectly on subject and I was not the only one who drifted away a bit. Here is your first post in this thread: For a real wargamer there are not any 'good' or 'bad' guys, there are just forces and objectives. US military invaded Iraq - a sovereign country, committed many atrocities on civilians and destabilized the region - and all of this based on fabricated claims. Following this pattern, the fictional conflict depicted in CMSF could also be based on fabricated claims. Were we really playing the 'good' guys? Still I enjoyed the experience and I think I will enjoy CMRT. The original intent was to discuss the USSRs and Nazi Germanys behaviour during WW2 and compare them with each other. You started to shift the topic away from the original discussion from the very first moment you started to post in this thread. Everybody else who driffted away after your first post in this thread did so as an indirect consequence of your posts or in a direct reply to one of your posts. No, I am only defending - surrounded by a pack of wolves AND on their area. AND it is just all because I dared to to break their inner peace and show things they might find disturbing...I provided a lot of evidence, links, videos. And what I got in return? Statements that your military are 'good guys' because you killed less civilians than Russians did? You really believe it? How far a man can go to morally justify such actions? Invading Iraq and killing civilians was WRONG. And even political benefits for US are questionable. Regardless of the side of propaganda. The same pattern as always. Dodging, attacking, ignoring, strawman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cool breeze Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Wait..... so what does this have to do with if the nazis's or the commies were better during WW2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 1, 2014 Author Share Posted March 1, 2014 If the democracy in Iraq holds out maybe it'll turn out to be better in the end. Don't count on it. As of 2012, Indonesia is the only Muslim-majority nation acknowledged as democratic by both Freedom House and Economist democracy indexes. Turkey had a strong secular democracy thanks to the iron will of one man: Ataturk. He forcibly marginalized Islam. But the Muslims are eroding that tradition through force of numbers. Secular societies don't excel at population replacement. The pious breed faster. Of course all that could be said of Christian Europe 500 years ago. We'll see... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Here is your first post in this thread: I wanted to show the futility of such categorization in a wargame adding the third - more contemporary side, closer emotionally and geographically to the original poster than those sides mentioned initially. Still can't see anything wrong in a thread labelled as "OT". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Joch Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 This all started because you said the U.S. military committed " many atrocities in Iraq". The issue of war crimes as always been a sore topic around here, since you always have posters with neo-Nazi tendencies trying to show the Allies committed as many serious war crimes as the Aliies in WW2. Anyway this discussion is pointless (as is this whole thread IMHO), no one is going to change his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashez Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 The issue of war crimes as always been a sore topic around here, since you always have posters with neo-Nazi tendencies This is something I did not think about. This all started because you said the U.S. military committed " many atrocities in Iraq". And I provided a lot of evidence. And yeah, this proved to be a sore topic on US dominated forum - but I did not expect such denial and attempts to make light of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 I wanted to show the futility of such categorization in a wargame (...) I think you would have been better off by explicitly stating your intention instead of hoping that people interpret your post the way you want them to. Obviously that didnt work. (...) by adding the third - more contemporary side, closer emotionally and geographically to the original poster than those sides mentioned initially. Now that i know your first posts intent, i have to say that this was a tactically bad decision. Several historical analysists, like Joachim Fest, have stated that, the further temporary away a difficult historical past is, the easier it is for people to objectively discuss the events. This also matches my own experiences. By drawing a contemporary, emotionally and geographically close side into the discussion, you made sure that nobody even tried to think about 'the futility of such categorization in a wargame' and instead triggered a foreseeable discussion about said contemporary events. Still can't see anything wrong in a thread labelled as "OT". The O/T in the threads title was probably not placed there to encourage derailing attempts. Instead it is probably there to show that the discussion is not releated to the CMRT factions but instead to their real historical counterparts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costard Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 "Everybody knows that the good guys lost" Leonard Cohen, (Rod Stewart does a good version.) You Americans put out some great artists, you can't be all bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 Leonard Cohen, dear, is a Canadian. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costard Posted March 1, 2014 Share Posted March 1, 2014 You all look the same to me, sweetie. A continent full of amiable Emrys clones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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