Targeting in woods an forest

[c2yeung]

I dread fighting in woods and forest, particularly up a slope. My squad got shot up pretty bad and after a few turns .I still cannot pinpoint where the shots come from as most of my guys were cowering. (They are regular troops. When I finally got a ? soldier icon, I tried to target that but no blue nor grey so I cannot put suppressive fire at it. I ordered my guys to "hunt" in that general direction and they refused to act on my order. So I ordered another squad to "run" towards the ? to draw fire to expose them and got mowed down. Finally, I had to order another squad or 2 to circle back to the ?'s rear and side to dislodge the enemy which turns out to be 2 soldiers. Mind you, I was lucky I killed them dead on the spot. In another instance, they ran back up the slope a little and play the hide-and -seek game again at my guy's expense.

Have some of you encountered similar situation where the enemy seem to have a clear shot at you but you cannot fire back accurately because you cannot locate the enemy or have LOS/LOF at him? Is it safe to assume that if a soldier has LOS, he has LOF (He can see the target, so he can shoot at it)?

[sburke]

oh yeah, I have definitely felt that pain. I can't say I have found a solution per se, depends on terrain, depth of woods, what tools do you have (arty) etc. Smoke can sometimes help even the playing field as well.

[Juju]

Heh, talk about coincidence: check the thread I just posted a second ago (tawget bwiefwy) for a (hopefully) useful tactic.

[A Canadian Cat]

Fighting in the woods is brutal! Most of what you are doing is fairly sound - hunting forward trying to find the enemy. One thing you can do is area fire as close to the known enemy location as you can - some of the rounds will travel further and have some effect. Also use movement orders to get closer so that you can target the area you think the enemy is located.

What often happens is when your men, hunting through the woods, encounter the enemy there are only a few of them at the pointy end that actually spot the enemy. Once the enemy open fire those few might end up as casualties or run back some. Now no one can see the location the enemy is. At this point you want to move your men forward carefully and just close enough to area fire into the location where the enemy were briefly spotted or suspected. After that you can try again to move a team in for a closer look.

[c2yeung]

Fighting in the woods is brutal! Most of what you are doing is fairly sound - hunting forward trying to find the enemy. One thing you can do is area fire as close to the known enemy location as you can - some of the rounds will travel further and have some effect. Also use movement orders to get closer so that you can target the area you think the enemy is located.

What often happens is when your men, hunting through the woods, encounter the enemy there are only a few of them at the pointy end that actually spot the enemy. Once the enemy open fire those few might end up as casualties or run back some. Now no one can see the location the enemy is. At this point you want to move your men forward carefully and just close enough to area fire into the location where the enemy were briefly spotted or suspected. After that you can try again to move a team in for a closer look.

That is exactly what happened. The point men died, the rest behind either scampered away or lay low. Then, I moved another group up to try to pinpoint and area fire, same result. I ended up mobilizing a few squads to the suspected locale from different directions. Sometimes, I did not even get a ? to area fire at let alone mortar fire. Thanks for your advice, I will try to be more patient and approach it very slowly.

[womble]

Slow is your friend. With lots of long pauses at waypoints at the end of short movement legs; Slow troops can fight back quite effectively, and spot nearly as well as the troops that aren't moving. Blanket suppressive fire "as deep as you can get" from units that aren't moving; the fires will pass deeper into the wood than you can initially tell, and every splash on a leaf will potentially crank up the suppression meter on any troops within an AS of the impact.

And still it will be brutal. You'll get grenaded and any SMGs will exact a huge toll.

One other thing: you're referring to "squads". I hope you're splitting them up inyo teams, else your pain will be amplified 3-fold. I had the sole survivor of a Tank Hunter team pretty much execute a full squad of dogfaces and some MG-wallahs, IIRC, and that wasn't even in deep woods, just some fancy footwork around some bocage sections.

[bloodworth646]

I hope you use scouts, I always use scouts in these situations. The best way to beat a concealed enemy is to find them first, or atleast make them find only a portion of your force

Since i'm very casualty-sensitive i have my own way of scouting woods with the intention of minimizing casualties (even the scouts themselves!): Firstly don't just stretch a single hunt command from one end of the woods to another! wooded areas in CMx2 are nicely detailed - Some action spots/squares (whatever those things are called) have more foliage and offer more concealment than their neighbouring ones and small elevations changes may provide cover.

Plan a series of hunt commands with short pauses across the safest rout in the woods. During some of the pauses order your scouts to fire to recon what's ahead.

having the 'hide' command activated is also usefull as in wooded areas 90% of time time the opfor will find your scouts and not vice versa, so if the scouts get shot at they'll immediately go hiding and get protection or concealment from the foliage.

This method is time consuming at first but worth it beacause if done right you will gain the advantge of spotting the enemy with minimal causaulties.

[Freyberg]

Having light armour - bren carriers are my favourite - supporting scouts and infantry is a good tactic. TRPs are essential in most situations, and speculative artillery strikes are useful, or wait 'til your scouts get killed then plaster the area with heavy artillery.

Area fire, especially grazing fire, actually travels quite a long way, so if you fire in the general direction with MGs you'll probably get some good suppression. The advice above about having pauses between short hunt commands is good. Teams leapfrogging helps too.

[MikeyD]

I recall decades ago 60 Minutes columnist (and WWII veteran) Andy Rooney showed a film clip of the then-new Abrams tank racing around a course. He commented "Very impressive, but see those woods in the background? Tanks can't operate in the woods. That's where the enemy would be."

[sburke]

Don'tcha just hate when ya get a brand new tank and . . .

I can hear Andy doing a 60 minutes skit on it.

[c3k]

Woods. Your men will die. The advantage, rightfully, goes to the units which are immobile and waiting. Woods hunters don't walk around hoping to trip into a deer. They wait for the deer to come to them. So, you can either do as they do, and load a bait trap, spray some pheromes around, cover yourself in the urine of a menstruating female, or you can use tactics.

I prefer tactics.

Split your squads up. Spread out. Use scouts. Then use more scouts. Leapfrog when moving. Not necessarily over one another, but nearby.

Squad 1 should be split into Team A and B. (Bonus if you can get a C.) A sits. Draw a Target line. If it stops at 20m, then that's as far as B will go (or just shy of that spot). Move B up. Let B sit, then move A up. Use Hunt for the point team. Every squad does this. Keep the leadership with the weakest squad. You'll need more men. Always.

Sit, wait, watch. If you move quickly in the woods, you will die.

[Michael Emrys]

...cover yourself in the urine of a menstruating female...

Your home life must be...ahhhh..."interesting".

Michael

[Seedorf81]

Woods? What woods?

Forests? Where?

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7177/6801198856_3a84ee1481_b.jpg

[Andrew H.]

The approach I take is as follows:

1. Split squads. Keep them spread out laterally maybe 3 action spots across. Have a second echelon of scouts maybe 3 action spots back. If your squads split into two parts, the "B" team follows the "A" team. (with the lead team being whichever team has the most automatic weapons). If your squads split into three teams, the squad advances in a line, with the second echelon being a second squad.

2. Advance across a broad front moving 3 action spots if you don't expect to encounter enemy, 2 if you think you might encounter some, and 1 or 0 if there is a high likelihood of encountering them (like a sound contact). I usually move forward in "hunt," unless there is a sound contact, in which case I'll use "slow". (Or area target).

Once the first echelon has stopped, I move up the second echelon (using "move"). Sometimes I stop them just behind the first team, other times to the side. I don't like to be on the same action spot. (I tend not to "leapfrog" because I want the group with the automatic weapons in front).

3. I usually stop as soon as I encounter a sound contact and area fire. Concealment is different from cover, so even if your targeting line stops one or more action spots in front of the contact, the fire may still affect the contact. I'll typically bring the second echelon team to the action spot next to the first team in this case - move or quick to the action spot behind where I want to end up, then "slow" move into the spot itself.

(If the first echelon team is wiped out, the second team will "slow" into the spot behind where the first team was wiped out).

4. Teams which have not encountered an enemy unit will keep moving forward. Part of the goal is to identify strong points and gaps in the enemy line. In some cases, it's fine to have a standoff where you've encountered resistance and move more troops through the gaps you've uncovered.

But typically, I'll move adjacent units (the ones 2-3 action spots away) around the discovered enemy unit, in an attempt to curl around and flank or surround them, usually using "slow" when I'm really close.

5. These are just miscellaneous bits.

If there's a gap in the woods, I like to bring both teams to the edge of the gap and then crawl one across. These are really dangerous because you're in the open and the enemy may be in cover.

It's hard to use US style MMGs/HMGs in the woods; you're usually dead before you can deploy them. So I tend to keep them back and try to move them through undefended gaps discovered by other units. But once I've reached the edge of the woods I'll bring them there and set them up to cover troops as they move through the open.

60mm mortars can be really helpful for area fire on suspected targets.

Depending on the situation, sometimes I'll separate out the squad's AT team before splitting the squad into teams if I think I'm going to need them. They'll stay back.

Being ambushed by 20 mm AA guns in the woods sucks. I'm just saying.

[womble]

Depending on the situation, sometimes I'll separate out the squad's AT team before splitting the squad into teams if I think I'm going to need them.

If you're going to split an AT team off, it should be the second split. If you split them first, they scurry off, giggling, with all the squad's grenades and sit at the back playing pass the parcel... Split off an Assault team which gets most of the grenades and short range autofire, then split either a scout team or an AT team off the rump, if it's big enough.

The other reason to split off AT teams as a matter of routine is so that you can use any Rifle Grenades that might be present. Otherwise, any time you use "Target" (as opposed to Target Light) or let the squad pick its own shots, you'll tend to see the AT rockets getting fired off when it's not necessarily appropriate.

[Andrew H.]

If you're going to split an AT team off, it should be the second split. If you split them first, they scurry off, giggling, with all the squad's grenades and sit at the back playing pass the parcel... Split off an Assault team which gets most of the grenades and short range autofire, then split either a scout team or an AT team off the rump, if it's big enough.

Cool; I didn't know that

[A Canadian Cat]

Plan a series of hunt commands with short pauses across the safest rout in the woods. During some of the pauses order your scouts to fire to recon what's ahead.

having the 'hide' command activated is also usefull as in wooded areas 90% of time time the opfor will find your scouts and not vice versa, so if the scouts get shot at they'll immediately go hiding and get protection or concealment from the foliage.

I like the hide suggestion sounds like good idea. Doesn't that conflict with the area fire command though. In other words will they area fire and hide?

Wait will the hide command take effect if they are fired upon between way points (and thus will not have a target command) but if they make it all the way to the way point unattacked they will area fire? That would be cool. I'll have to experiment with that.

[slysniper]

Here is one suggestion no one has mentioned.

The goal is to close with - spot and kill the enemy

As for how to do that. I have found once you have a clue as to their location, smoke is your best tool-lay smoke from your infantry units that have it towards the enemy and then slide up a larger force spread out and in line as much as possible. It does a good job of blocking enemy fire. have your troops non moving and focused on the enemy location as the smoke clears. now you are at least on even ground with them and once units start spotting each other you are now close enough to also spot them. If you have brought more troops than the enemy has, you will win the fight generally.

With this method plus good manuver skills, you can clear the enemy without taking any more losses than they.

If in a hurry, this can also be a tactic that can work without having to take the time to find gaps or flanks. you can create them or force the enemy to respond. thus speeding up the action if needed in the time frame.

[sburke]

Here is one suggestion no one has mentioned.

The goal is to close with - spot and kill the enemy

As for how to do that. I have found once you have a clue as to their location, smoke is your best tool-lay smoke from your infantry units that have it towards the enemy and then slide up a larger force spread out and in line as much as possible. It does a good job of blocking enemy fire. have your troops non moving and focused on the enemy location as the smoke clears. now you are at least on even ground with them and once units start spotting each other you are now close enough to also spot them. If you have brought more troops than the enemy has, you will win the fight generally.

With this method plus good manuver skills, you can clear the enemy without taking any more losses than they.

If in a hurry, this can also be a tactic that can work without having to take the time to find gaps or flanks. you can create them or force the enemy to respond. thus speeding up the action if needed in the time frame.

I didn't spell it out quite so well, but did mention smoke earlier. I am still smarting from vKleist smoking me out and blowing away my woods defense in Bois de Baugin. Very traumatic... I need to go take a moment...

[slysniper]

The reason to stay in line and not have troops behind your front line troops is,

Granedes become the common weapon in this type of fighting, I have seen too many bounce past the troops in the front line and kill units in the next action square behind them. So I have found it wise to keep that gap there if possible.

[c2yeung]

The approach I take is as follows:

1. Split squads. Keep them spread out laterally maybe 3 action spots across. Have a second echelon of scouts maybe 3 action spots back. If your squads split into two parts, the "B" team follows the "A" team. (with the lead team being whichever team has the most automatic weapons). If your squads split into three teams, the squad advances in a line, with the second echelon being a second squad.

2. Advance across a broad front moving 3 action spots if you don't expect to encounter enemy, 2 if you think you might encounter some, and 1 or 0 if there is a high likelihood of encountering them (like a sound contact). I usually move forward in "hunt," unless there is a sound contact, in which case I'll use "slow". (Or area target).

Once the first echelon has stopped, I move up the second echelon (using "move"). Sometimes I stop them just behind the first team, other times to the side. I don't like to be on the same action spot. (I tend not to "leapfrog" because I want the group with the automatic weapons in front).

3. I usually stop as soon as I encounter a sound contact and area fire. Concealment is different from cover, so even if your targeting line stops one or more action spots in front of the contact, the fire may still affect the contact. I'll typically bring the second echelon team to the action spot next to the first team in this case - move or quick to the action spot behind where I want to end up, then "slow" move into the spot itself.

(If the first echelon team is wiped out, the second team will "slow" into the spot behind where the first team was wiped out).

4. Teams which have not encountered an enemy unit will keep moving forward. Part of the goal is to identify strong points and gaps in the enemy line. In some cases, it's fine to have a standoff where you've encountered resistance and move more troops through the gaps you've uncovered.

But typically, I'll move adjacent units (the ones 2-3 action spots away) around the discovered enemy unit, in an attempt to curl around and flank or surround them, usually using "slow" when I'm really close.

5. These are just miscellaneous bits.

If there's a gap in the woods, I like to bring both teams to the edge of the gap and then crawl one across. These are really dangerous because you're in the open and the enemy may be in cover.

It's hard to use US style MMGs/HMGs in the woods; you're usually dead before you can deploy them. So I tend to keep them back and try to move them through undefended gaps discovered by other units. But once I've reached the edge of the woods I'll bring them there and set them up to cover troops as they move through the open.

60mm mortars can be really helpful for area fire on suspected targets.

Depending on the situation, sometimes I'll separate out the squad's AT team before splitting the squad into teams if I think I'm going to need them. They'll stay back.

Being ambushed by 20 mm AA guns in the woods sucks. I'm just saying.

All good suggestions. I do split into 3 or 4 squads and to order them to hunt abreast to cover a wide path without a big gap and to provide mutual support if enemy encountered. Using smoke for my squads to gt closer to be on even ground is worth a try. Using arty fire is out of the question as the encounter is usually too close for it, that is assuming I even see a ?. In my recent fight in the woods, I got harassed for 2 full turns without a clue where ? is. Slow crawl towards and area fire at the general direction of suspected enemy are noted. I thought area fire can only reach as far the faint target line can reach. So far, I would sacrifice by charging a squad or 2 toward the suspected position hoping to flush them out. Once they are spotted, my other squads will pursue and finish them off. It proves to be very costly but saves time. Mind you, it only works if you are only dealing with a single source. If there is a hidden enemy close by, my pursuing squads will get ambushed and the vicious cycle begins again.

[womble]

I do split into 3 or 4 squads...

Do you mean teams? But no squad I've ever seen splits into more than three teams... so just in case, we're referring to the "Administrative" commands that split your squad into its constituent (or variable) teams. That's a very important distinction.

...thought area fire can only reach as far the faint target line can reach...

It goes as far as the bullets do. You can see how far they travel; it's not just "special effects".

[c2yeung]

Do you mean teams? But no squad I've ever seen splits into more than three teams... so just in case, we're referring to the "Administrative" commands that split your squad into its constituent (or variable) teams. That's a very important distinction.

It goes as far as the bullets do. You can see how far they travel; it's not just "special effects".

Sorry for the confusion. I do mean split my squads into teams.