CMFI Demo: Fight At Vallebruce

[DaddyO]

I own CMBN, and I'm not exactly the best Combat Mission player. In fact, that opening sentence is a fancy way of saying I'm not very good at all. Still, I play sometimes and try to absorb the great advice given on the Battlefront forums.

I recently downloaded the CMFI demo, and in it there is a scenario, the first listed, called Fight At Vallebruce. The Axis controls the far end which consists of a high ridge along the entire far back line (from the Alled point of view) that rises to a dominating peak on the far right. These ridge commands almost the entire map.

The Axis also occupies a fairly large, elevated complex of two-story buildings on the left-center and forward of the high ridge, and a two-story church on the right also elevated above the approaches. At the base of both of these the ground slopes downward to the valley that the Allies must cross in order to approach them (except for the ridge line described in the next paragraph.) Between the building complex and the church is a fortified trench line.

Along the entire left-side is an elevated ridge line lightly shielded at the edge by sparse trees which provide almost no concealment. Even from troops on the opposite side of the valley. At the base of this ridge is a road, still a little above the valley, that runs straight along the length of the map to the Vallebruce building complex. There is no significant concealment I can find along this road, and the enemy has anti-armor assets covering the road.

On the left side of the valley floor there is a road that seems to offer the only concealment because it butts up to the slope that rises to the entire stretch of Vallebruce. But once you go there you're quickly pinned.

There are two stands of trees on the near side of the valley floor, one on the left and one on the right that offer some concealment. But as soon as you use them for an observation post (with appropriate small cover arc to avoid giving away your position) you are pounded by precise mortar fire and your observing officer is killed. There is nowhere safe for him to go. And you have no idea where the mortar fire is coming from, although there are plenty of potential enemy sites both for the mortar(s) and for observation.

I assume that I am hopelessly missing some covered or concealed avenue of approach. I've tried scouting the ground carefully. I've searched using Vallebruce on the forum and found nothing. Can anyone who has successfully played this scenario give me some clues that might give my approach a chance?

[Sublime]

Your rangers switched their BARs for Brownings - they're decent at long range suppressive fire. You're gonna want to get bang for your buck with any mortars you have - use target light so they fire less rounds per minute, and slowly pick off German HMGs and heavy weapons. Other than that the key is to use the hell out of your AFVs and artillery...

[Tempestzzzz]

Use the Stuart to pound the ********* but don't peek out too far. Spotters and mortars are key. Given the time constraints use patience and caution. Fools rush in on this map. +1 what Sublime said.

I really don't want to ruin it for you. It was a fun map.

I actually beat the AI the first time (Elite level)-but it was bloody and I'd already graduated through the CM: NORMANDY meat grinder so I knew these pixel Germans wouldn't be a pushover.

As I recall the map has several AI plans. So Hans isn't always exactly at the same place.

Welcome to sunny Italy. :^/

Wait when you go Elephant hunting with the Brits haw-haw-haw

[DaddyO]

You're gonna want to get bang for your buck with any mortars you have - use target light so they fire less rounds per minute, and slowly pick off German HMGs and heavy weapons.

Thanks for all the comments. What I've found frustrating is that every time I've used the mortars so far, with a spotter and Point Target not Area Target, the mortars have been WAY off target. I'm using a 60mm mortar at the beginning because I want to save the 81mm off-map mortars for AT guns and the like. Yesterday's game went south immediately when my spotter used up his one opportunity (before being annihilated himself by mortars) on a 60mm mortar mission whose shots consistently fell not much more than half way to the target. Under these conditions it's kind of hard to pick off anything.

[Ts4EVER]

There is actually quite a bit of dead ground right hand side of the road (from your perspective). Smoke the road with mortars and cross it with an assault force. From there you can move up safely to the little walled garden, deploy at the wall and suppress the Germans.

[noxnoctum]

There's a lot of dead ground on the right side like Ts4EVER said.

Main thing is just to overwhelm them with firepower. If you advance intelligently the Germans will at most only be able to fire at you from 3 positions tops at any one time.

[Sublime]

Thanks for all the comments. What I've found frustrating is that every time I've used the mortars so far, with a spotter and Point Target not Area Target, the mortars have been WAY off target. I'm using a 60mm mortar at the beginning because I want to save the 81mm off-map mortars for AT guns and the like. Yesterday's game went south immediately when my spotter used up his one opportunity (before being annihilated himself by mortars) on a 60mm mortar mission whose shots consistently fell not much more than half way to the target. Under these conditions it's kind of hard to pick off anything.

Theres a time and a place for indirect spotter missions. The obvious with off map, and sometimes with on map. However the mortars in game are usually far better employed in a direct fire role. Really beyond 1000 meters the enemy cannot retaliate beyond AT/tank fire, or their own arty and mortars. If you find good positions the enemy will probably not even spot your mortars. Keyholing mortars works great - allowing enemy view of your mortars from only a certain angle.. just as it works good for AT guns. If you place a crew served weapon on top of a hill with view of the whole map... the whole map will be able to strike back.

As far as the US forces your 60mm mortars your way better off just doing direct fire - its not worth the wait. 81mms are more complicated...

[DaddyO]

Thanks again for all the advice.

[DaddyO]

One matter that has eluded me using Combat Mission is taking screen shots. If I try to do a SHIFT PrtScrn screen capture using a Windows keyboard with the game map on screen it always takes a picture of my desktop or an open window running "behind" Combat Mission, which I assume is running in DOS mode (?). If I try to Alt-TAB from the game screen to the Windows desktop to use a the Windows screen snippet program the screen momentarily makes the change but then immediately reverts back to the game screen. Is there a Windows setting I'm not aware of that may be giving me problems?

I'd like to be able to do graphic battlefield analysis like I see so many do to help me in my planning, or to post my tactical situation and get advice.

Any help is appreciated.

[mjkerner]

One matter that has eluded me using Combat Mission is taking screen shots. If I try to do a SHIFT PrtScrn screen capture using a Windows keyboard with the game map on screen it always takes a picture of my desktop or an open window running "behind" Combat Mission, which I assume is running in DOS mode (?). If I try to Alt-TAB from the game screen to the Windows desktop to use a the Windows screen snippet program the screen momentarily makes the change but then immediately reverts back to the game screen. Is there a Windows setting I'm not aware of that may be giving me problems?

I'd like to be able to do graphic battlefield analysis like I see so many do to help me in my planning, or to post my tactical situation and get advice.

Any help is appreciated.

That never seems to work with CM games. FRAPS is the way to go.

[DaddyO]

Okay, thanks for the help on Fraps.

Now, to me this a learning exercise, not an attempt to win a battle. So below is an annotated picture of the battle map. Forgive my crude scrawls if you will, I'm just trying to get this posted. After posting the map, I will add a questions post.

Here's a look at the terrain from the attacker's viewpoint.

And here's a view focusing more on the approaches to the church.

[DaddyO]

The basic advice is to use my mortars (60mm on-map, and 81mm off-map), and one specific piece of advice was to use on-map mortar directly rather than risk a spotter.

So far, the northeast tree stand receives a mortar attack as soon as I do anything other than hide. The northwest tree stand seems to offer better concealment and leads up to a hidden area before sloping quickly up to the walled grove. But there is no significant spotting from there. So my first question is: If I were to position my 60mm mortar for direct fire, where do you suggest I place it and why? The church and the town itself command all approaches once you crest the initial slopes. If you can see them, they can see you. The thin trees on the east ridge offer no significant concealment.

Overall, the only approach I see that offers any promise is to (A) suppress the church and the trench in town, and ( use the hidden area to assemble and then somehow destroy any troops in the walled grove and attack the church from the northwest as quickly as possible. This does not look so easy, but it looks like my only chance.

Regarding (A), I could station my only tank to where it is at the north end of the east ridge just hidden from the view of the town (and the risk of antitank guns) by the thin trees of the east ridge. From there I can target the church and parts of the walled grove with suppressive fire and do it with impunity.

Regarding (, the only option I see is quickly crest the slope leading to the walled grove as far to the west as possible and just assault the church the best I can, hoping to use the church itself as a shield against any attack from the town itself.

Feel free to correct me or comment.

[A Canadian Cat]

It is great to see your AAR posted here - thank you for doing it. I will be reading as you add to it.

I have an image size request. Yours are 1600x900 pixels and 6Mb in size .png files. Consider switching to .jpg I know some people have had trouble with png files in the past but more importantly use some compression and consider resizing to 1000 pixels on the long side. AARs are much easier to read when they fit onscreen and the need for horizontal scrolling is minimized. Plus small .jpg files load *much* faster.

Consider the images here http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105660&page=9 Most of them are 70 to 80 Kb or 100 times smaller than yours which means when you are loading 20 or 30 images on a page it will make a huge difference.

[warrenpeace]

In my experience, direct fire mortars are not a great idea unless they are outside of small arms range (which is not possible on this map). Also mortars are not great against troops in buildings. My strategy is to sneak my machine guns into the close woods such that they have LOS to the church to suppress elements there. However you should keep them hidden until you are ready to use them. I'd also hide a spotter that can communicate with the on-map mortars, just in case a good target emerges for indirect support. The tanks and infantry can get into the defilade area and set up for attack. Wait for the first batch of reinforcements before you commit. Once you are ready, unhide your MGs,suppress the church, and send out some scouts. They probably will die, but they most likely will reveal some enemy positions. The tanks can pop up enough to suppress these positions, and then two platoons of infantry can advance, one into the "valley area" and one to the hidden area. Once in the Valley area, those troops usually can fight there way into the lowest house. The hidden area troops usually go next to the wall where they can provide supporting fire for the advance. Then you can send them to the church.

The biggest difficulty with this (and many other battles in CMFI) is dealing with artillery. The MGs will most likely get clobbered after a few minutes of firing, but hopefully by then they will have accomplished something. The AI has the same artillery delay as the human player, so if you keep the infantry moving, don't stay in the same place for more than a couple of minutes. Your tanks will be key in this battle. Keep them back until you know where his infantry are hiding. Then you can move them up.

Finally, don't assume it gets easier once you get a foothold in the town. Go slow and assume the enemy is everywhere. Your infantry is safe from artillery in buildings, so there is no need to rush. Use your tanks to destroy his infantry.

This is not a easy battle, but it is definitely winnable.

[DaddyO]

Thanks for the battle suggestions, L.T. (hopefully you get the joke, Warrenpeace). I might be until Wednesday trying it, but you've provided me a basic plan to try, and that's a huge help.

[DaddyO]

It is great to see your AAR posted here - thank you for doing it. I will be reading as you add to it.

I have an image size request. Yours are 1600x900 pixels and 6Mb in size .png files. Consider switching to .jpg I know some people have had trouble with png files in the past but more importantly use some compression and consider resizing to 1000 pixels on the long side. AARs are much easier to read when they fit onscreen and the need for horizontal scrolling is minimized. Plus small .jpg files load *much* faster.

Consider the images here http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=105660&page=9 Most of them are 70 to 80 Kb or 100 times smaller than yours which means when you are loading 20 or 30 images on a page it will make a huge difference.

Ian, I will resize the images and replace the ones in the original post. Thanks for the tip.

Edited: Well, it appears I no longer have access to the edit button on my original pictures post. So here are the pictures resized, and going forward I will post with the recommended settings.

Top down annotated map:

Attacker elevated view:

Approaches to the church:

[nachtmusick]

I just finished this fight without too much trouble.

I found the "thin trees" on the east ridge to be pretty good cover, actually. If you advance through the center of the tree line, though, your troops will be under the canopy and will be visible to all. If you advance to the east of the tree line, halfway up the slope, the canopy will block LOS from the rest of the map. Mostly.

You can walk at least two-thirds of the way to the town this way and receive only spotty fire. More importantly, you can find numerous positions on the hillside where you can fire through the canopy down onto the church and to the line of foxholes that lies between the town and church. The return fire was not at all lethal.

The key for me, though, was planting a Stuart in the sweet spot mentioned above at the northern end of the tree line. From there the tank was able to drive all opposition from the church and foxholes. That then allowed me to mount an advance from the walled grove through a dead zone on the "cross valley road" and then straight up the slope to Building 14. You may also be able to get an AFV around the back side of the NW stand of trees and then pummel the town from a position north of the walled grove without getting hit by an ATG.

[AlexUK]

Just had a go myself - what a great map - definitely some surprises!

As others have said, take your time - that 'small area concealed from town' is very handy to set up MGs and mortars to deal with the church (there is ammo resupply for the MGs so you don't need to hold back). The East Ridge tree line is also good cover from the town.

Good luck!

[herr_oberst]

Once you are ready, unhide your MGs,suppress the church, and send out some scouts...

The MGs will most likely get clobbered after a few minutes of firing, but hopefully by then they will have accomplished something. The AI has the same artillery delay as the human player, so if you keep the infantry moving, don't stay in the same place for more than a couple of minutes.

Agreed. I consistently have to remind myself to displace my MGs occasionally. If I've targeted them specifically, I try to leave them in that spot not more than 3 minutes. If I have three MG teams, I try to have two firing at a time as the other *should* be busy relocating (if I remember to move them out). Once the moved team is again engaged, another team moves, round robin style.

[Sublime]

I have to disagree with Warrenpeace. First of all your infantry isnt safe from arty in buildings. They help - that much is a fact, especially against mortars (which have a larger burst, with less shrapnel than artillery) However even mortars WILL easily cause casualties against infantry in buildings, and regular artillery will do a number on them as well. That said, buildings are still better than open pavement, or even open ground usually.

Second of all, direct lay mortars, even within small arms range is something I do with devastating effect routinely. The key is to try to pin, or even suppress the enemy enough for the mortar team to get their range and hit. You can easily do this within small arms range. Mind you less than 75m is kinda crazy, but 150m + isnt a big deal. You may take casualties, but with other troops supporting with fire, and by using terrain to block the view of ALL the enemy forces, your mortars are your best weapon besides your tanks as a US player.

FWIW I won the scenario handily as the US against a human opponent. He didnt play poorly, the key developments were more luck than anything that lost him the battle. As I remember I had only a screen moving towards Vallebruca (from the US lines) on the right side of the road. My main force of infantry slowly advanced in the woods on the left map edge towards the town. The screen drew fire, and my tanks and mortars responded. Vallebruca was also an obvious target for a preplanned arty barrage, and then follow on arty missions later, even before I knew the enemy was definitely there.

I managed a fairly rapid advance into town, which meant I was essentially the defender when his reinforcements came =D

[warrenpeace]

Sublime, you are right, higher caliber mortars and artillery are effective against buildings, I was only referring to 60 mM and smaller, which are not so great.

Whenever I try and use my mortars in direct fire mode they tend to get shot up. They are slow to get the range and are very vulnerable to MG fire. However, I haven't thought about using them like you do, setting up after the enemy is suppressed and using them to finish off the suppressed guys. I'll give it a shot.

[womble]

Sublime, you are right, higher caliber mortars and artillery are effective against buildings, I was only referring to 60 mM and smaller, which are not so great.

I used to think that. But that was before I started using them in DF mode. 60mm aren't quite as good as Brixia, but you can pick which floor you're wanting to target. Generally, for indirect modes (which will tend to hit the roofs) you want to be on neither the ground nor top level of the structure being struck, that way you get the best protection from groundbursts that muss the building, and don't suffer immediately the roof caves in, nor from burst effects on that top floor that leak past the tiles. But against DF mortars, it doesn't matter what floor you're on, at close range, because the rounds will often hit the face of the building.

Whenever I try and use my mortars in direct fire mode they tend to get shot up. They are slow to get the range and are very vulnerable to MG fire. However, I haven't thought about using them like you do, setting up after the enemy is suppressed and using them to finish off the suppressed guys. I'll give it a shot.

Another way of using them is to exploit the fact that they can fire from defilade. Good spots can take some finding, but it is possible to shoot from positions that flat trajectory rounds simply can't reach. Mortar teams have the ability to shoot "just past" what other (non-spotter) units consider accessible LOS. Often, that can mean you can actually have a crest between your mortar and its target. Even absent complete defilade, bocage gives good cover, often good enough to allow the mortar to find range, at which point the bocage line the enemy are behind offers much less protection to the plummeting HE than it offers for the mortar crew against the incoming bullets.

But using them as the killing arm on a suppressed enemy firing line works too.

[Sublime]

Warrenpeace - they're slower definitely, but still quicker than most mortars. I use my 60mms right up with infantry, scouts, then line troops, then the 60mms right behind them, maybe 30 seconds or so. They setup really quick. Also as womble said you dont want roof bursts - even with say 81mms I actually target the ground next to buildings. The blast will throw shrapnel into buildings. It'll also hurt men if it lands close enough and of course 'over' rounds will hit the building face.

Another trick I've used before with buildings is using them to get 'airbursts' with tanks or ATGs. I had an enemy take a towed AT gun next to a 2 story building. The crew dismounted to move the gun over and set it up. I saw the truck pull up and crew dismount, then lost them. I had LOS to the 2nd story with a Pz IV (IIRC). I area fired the building - the exploding rounds on the outside of the building destroyed the truck, and killed the ATG's crew.

As Womble stated mortars ability to target 'just' beyond their LoS is key when you want them in direct fire. You want to see targets, or an area, but not be exposed to the entire map hopefully. This will cut down on incoming fire. You dont even necessarily need to see your target, just close to it, or have your target be right behind a rise or wall... On map mortars in the orginal stock CMBN were probably the most effective weapon in the game. They've drastically been toned down, and are much more realistic, but they're still extremely deadly killers.

[nachtmusick]

Playing as the Italians has taught me the value of direct fire mortars. Those brixias are indispensable.

[Sublime]

Indeed, they're your only true killer with Italian infantry forces, the rifles usually just pin - if that. I have to confess I havent played as Italians since GL came out though, and perhaps the new MG modelling means Breda's are better machine guns.