Bug: Regular artillery mission also depletes smoke munitions

[Bulletpoint]

In the mission "Hell in the Hedgerows" I had a battery of 75mm Field Howitzers.

After firing all 4 guns with regular ammo for "maximum" duration at the start of the battle, I find that the battery is now unavailable and listed as "empty", even though at the start of the battle it had also 25 white phosphorous shells and no smoke was fired.

This caused me to lose the battle, as I had no way of crossing the open ground without a smoke screen, and since even 81mm mortars cause no damage to wooden bunkers...

[agusto]

I think that the game uses HE rounds as spotting rounds and if those are depleted, you cant issue other fire missions anymore as well.

[Bulletpoint]

I think that the game uses HE rounds as spotting rounds and if those are depleted, you cant issue other fire missions anymore as well.

That makes a kind of sense, but I should still be able to do an "Emergency" mission then, as it uses no spotting rounds?

[A Canadian Cat]

No I believe this is the intended behaviour - not intuitive (from a UI perspective) but intended. When the battery crew are loading the gun for a fire mission they "assemble" the charge and round to reach the target. The listed smoke round count is the number of rounds they can turn into smoke. The listed HE rounds is the count of the number of charges and HE they have.

So, the smoke rounds are not totally separate from the HE. If you want to use the smoke rounds then you need to have that number of HE rounds available.

This does not hold for tank smoke rounds - they really are separate.

[Bulletpoint]

I assumed a pack howitzer fired "cartridge" ammunition, where each shell comes with its own propellant in one package? Can't seem to find any pictures of WW2 howitzers with their ammunition though..

[c3k]

This artillery round count "problem" has been present since the beginning. "HE" doesn't mean "HE": it means "total number of objects we can send your way on a ballistic trajectory".

"Smoke" doesn't mean "Smoke": it means "the most smoke-filled objects we can send your way IF there are any "HE" left to use as smoke-filled objects".

If you use HE and don't keep a tight eye on round count, you lose any smoke capability. If Smoke is 12, HE is 100, then you could the Smoke first, then have 88 HE left to use.

A problem would be if your HE were down to 16, and you ordered "cease-fire". The delay in command and execution could result in more HE being fired, such that only 8 rounds, in toto, would be left. That means you could only use 8 Smoke. So, you'd have to cease-fire your HE MUCH earlier than you'd think, in order to ensure the Smoke doesn't get depleted.

This is not intuitive.

Ken

[Bulletpoint]

Thanks for clarifying this. I suppose that it's realistic, if howitzers in fact do use separate shells and driving charges. But I thought the actual shells were the expensive items in short supply, and that driving charges would be plentiful. Would be nice as a player to know what's in stock for the mission.

Especially since smoke is usually used last, and with the "fluffy bracket" ammo requirements for the different firing missions, you never really know how many shells they will fire off.

[agusto]

...you never really know how many shells they will fire off.

IIRC:

Quick: 2-4 rounds

Short: 6-12

Medium: 12-18

Long: 20-28

Maximum: all available ammunation

I mostly use short and medium missions.

[Bulletpoint]

IIRC:

Quick: 2-4 rounds

Short: 6-12

Medium: 12-18

Long: 20-28

Maximum: all available ammunation

I mostly use short and medium missions.

Yes, that is my point.. you don't know if your "Medium" mission will lob 12 or 18 shells.

Speaking of fire missions, any point in using anything but "Heavy"? After all, you want the shells delivered as fast as possible, right?

Maybe it's more accurate to fire slower?

[agusto]

If you want surpress an enemy a slower ROF can create a longer lasting effect. Or somtimes you maybe just want to harass the enemy for a couple of turns without wasting too much ammo. Also, IIRC, your artillery battery will need more time to "regenerate" after a heavy fire mission than after a light or a medium mission, depending of the amount of rounds fired. After quick/light mission your battery will be able to fire another mission after a shorter amount of time than after a long/heavy mission.

[Bulletpoint]

If you want surpress an enemy a slower ROF can create a longer lasting effect. Or somtimes you maybe just want to harass the enemy for a couple of turns without wasting too much ammo.

But the suppression effect will be less, as units will have more time to "sober up" between shells?

[A Canadian Cat]

Or you might want to simply deny some ground to your enemy. No one in their right mind drives / walks into an area being shelled. Use a slow ROF and you can deny that area for quite a long time.

[agusto]

No one in their right mind drives / walks into an area being shelled.

The AI does .

[Bulletpoint]

Or you might want to simply deny some ground to your enemy. No one in their right mind drives / walks into an area being shelled. Use a slow ROF and you can deny that area for quite a long time.

Interesting, never thought of that. But then again, I only play against the computer, so that kind of tricks are not needed..

[agusto]

But the suppression effect will be less, as units will have more time to "sober up" between shells?

Yeah, but sometimes a heavy fire mission would be wasted ammunation if you just want to surpress an enemy formation. That depends on calibre and rounds per square meter.

[Erwin]

Quick: 2-4 rounds

Short: 6-12

Medium: 12-18

Long: 20-28

Maximum: all available ammunition

This is a very useful guide. However, be aware that IIRC that is for EACH BARREL. So, if you have 4 barrels each firing SHORT, you could inadvertently use as many as 48 shells.

The obvious solution is to reduce the number of barrels firing. But, in a discussion about this back in CMSF days, we were told that in RL, ALL tubes are fired and that one doesn't get to request one or two tubes only.

However, am hoping that someone more knowledgeable can illuminate us about this.

[womble]

I get a lot of use out of light fire missions. While it's true that affected units recover more in between the shells that come near enough to suppress, it certainly seems to hold true that units that have been repeatedly suppressed end up in a bad way, morale-wise, even if they've had chances to recover. And if x shells per minute are "enough", shooting 3 or four times that many is a waste, and won't have 3 or 4 times the efffect, whereas maintaining the mission keeps the enemy's head down for 3 or 4 times as long.

In terms of actual kill-count, there's an argument that light bombardments will cause more damage, as some suppressed troops will have time to "un-cower" and stick their heads back up between salvoes.

[Erwin]

FWIW: I did tests in CMSF re rates of arty fire and the effects. The results were that LIGHT/HARASS for longer periods caused more casualties than intense bombardment with the same number of shells.

[John Kettler]

Bulletpoint,

75mm howitzer ammo comes in two flavors: semifixed HE, WP and Smoke; fixed HEAT. The former has a separate projectile and case. The case can have multiple charge increments inserted into it over and above the base charge (Charge Zero). This allows for engaging close high angle targets (reverse mountain slope) through direct fire on, say, an enemy gun position. HEAT is fixed because the object of the game is to get that HEAT shell downrange as fast as possible and using as flat a trajectory as possible. Here's the discussion from the authoritative TM 9-1901 Artillery Ammunition.

http://archive.org/stream/Tm9-1901/Tm9-1901ArtilleryAmmunition1944#page/n119/mode/2up

Regards,

John Kettler

[dieseltaylor]

There is a certain sense of wonderment that BF goes to this sort of detail over playability. Given there is no facility to tell your battery to conserve enough shells for a later smoke mission the onus for control lies heavily on the players.

As I have more info on the small UK gun/howitzer I give info on charges. The 25pdr [88mm] also used charges and you can see how complicated it could be be. However overall there would be many more charges than warheads to enable more than minimum fire range.

The charge bags were variously called 'portions' or 'sections' of the propellant charge. No 1 portion (the core charge) being Charge 1, portions 1 and 2 being Charge 2 and all three portions being Charge 3. Each portion contained a different amount of propellant and in the 25-pdr their bags were coloured red, white and blue. 25-pdr had a second cartridge for Charge Super. When Charge 1 or 2 were ordered the blue and or white bags were removed from the cartridge case.

In 1944 intermediate charges were introduced to better enable upper register fire by 25-pdr. They were provided as increment bags that were added to a standard charge in a cartridge - one increment to charge 1, one or two increments to charge 2. This took 25-pdr from a 4 charge to a 7 charge gun.

I find it strange that the 75mm appears to be handicapped in the charges department or is this historically correct? I have read very few artillery memoirs or accounts but shortage of charges has never been worthy of note. Would it be simpler just to allow them to fire what they have?

I have a vested interest as I have a new player to introduce and he is not a detail man - tracking ammo each turn is not the kind of thing I think he will like.

[JonS]

As is usual, Deez, you have firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick, then used it to knit yourself a wholly imaginary hair shirt.

This has nothing to do with charge bags, or anything to do with logistics at all. You, as player, are granted permission to fire a certain number of rounds. This is quite normal. In the real world FOs request an allocation of guns and ammo when they engage a target, and someone higher up the food chain - with a wider perspective - allocates resources (guns, ammo, and a time within which to use them) as they see fit. Generally a real world request will include a request for different natures - mostly HE, some smoke, and some prox rounds, being a fairly normal request for something at CMs scale.

In CM you don't have to worry about that. You get a total number of rounds, of which a certain percentage may - if you so chose - be smoke. Or they can be HE, if that's what you want. Simples.

Your imaginary friend is probably better off getting someone who actually plays the game to show him the ropes. You'd probably just poison the well.

[Macisle]

I find Harassing fire to be the most useful setting for arty. 1 tube only set for maximum and then just move it wherever you want it to go, as long as you manage your spotters well and cancel as soon it's not worth the ammo use.

Depending on your ammo allowance, you might have that tool constantly at your disposal for most of a scenario. That's my standard setting for arty. It's great on the attack or defense.

[dieseltaylor]

JonS - Thanks for explaining it. It is quite simple but looks like most in the thread had not cracked it! BTW I cannot see it explained in the manual in the artillery section have I missed it?

Whilst on artillery am I right in saying every on-board artillery is able to use both its smoke and its HE.?

In case anyone is curious about the practical use I gave a cease fire order to a battery of 25pdr in maximum fire mode when we reached the 40 smoke allocation and when they reacted a further 28 rounds had been fired. Of the 12 smoke 4 went as spotting rounds and then the smoke arrived. As you can appreciate there is a significant delay for relaying the battery and for correcting the spotting rounds before the smoke screen arrives. Practice to get confidence in this arm would not be wasted.

[Baneman]

...

Whilst on artillery am I right in saying every on-board artillery is able to use both its smoke and its HE.?

...

That's correct. Everything on-board is explicitly modelled WYSIWYG.

There was a bug with mortar bearers' smoke ammo not being used, but that was fixed.