A new Hanomag thread - with questions.

[Baneman]

While in the Ammo Scavenging thread I was about to moan about something else I noticed quite recently. Then I decided to check my facts before opening my big mouth. So once again I did a bit of (easy) testing, selecting Hanomags and looking at things pertaining.

In a recent QB I started against the AI to check the 2.01 features I ( as usual, if at all possible, since I love them ) bought a couple of 251/9 Stummels.

During the setup phase I was going through my usual up-ammoing evolutions with my troops and came up on the fact that I couldn't put anyone into the Stummel to get their ammo.

Now I was pretty certain that I used to do this ( even though you have to get the crew out first ).

Luckily I never bothered to patch my backup install of CMBN, so I tried the same thing in version 1.10 - and it worked.

With my dander now well up, I mucked about with a few other things and found quite a few changes/differences between 1.10 and 2.01 - to whit :

251/9 Stummel

1.10 : Crew Dismounts - can put any other 4 man group in and Acquire Ammo.

2.01 : Crew Bails Out - no one else can get in.

- This is strange since it still carries 2k of MG ammo in an Acquirable state ie. white not green lettering. But now there's no way for anyone to get at it ( until/if Acquire is ever changed to allow if from outside the vehicle ).

This seems to apply to all crew-only vehicles now eg. 250/9 etc.

When I wrote recently about who gets a gunner and who doesn't, I quoted my old 2011 post - which c3k told me was wrong.

It seems that who gets a gunner and who doesn't has also changed.

This affects German HMG teams in Armored PzG Battalions

In 2011 I wrote : "HMG squads 2 per 251/1 : No Gunner ( makes sense as the HMG squads are 6 men each and a dedicated gunner in a 251/1 takes up one of the 12 passenger slots )."

- Except that NOW in 2.01, this 251/1 DOES come with a gunner and thus one of the 2 HMG teams no longer fits in the vehicle

- I quickly tested in 1.10 and my original statement is true - both teams go in the 251/1 and there's no dedicated gunner.

251/10 :

1.10 - shows 2 crew slots and 4 passenger slots.

2.01 - shows 3 crew slots ( 1 is always empty - puzzling - what's it there for then ? ) and 3 passenger slots. Despite the empty state of the crew slot, you can now only put a maximum of 3 passengers in, again reducing the Ammo acquiring ability.

- not comprehensively tested, there may be cases with 4 man HQ's where the old system applies.

So .. uh .. is this all working as intended ??

Particularly with regard to the HMG teams which now cannot both be transported by their ... transport.

The crew thing is mostly awkward, but does raise the question of why these vehicles are carrying theoretically Acquirable ammo that no one can actually get.

And apologies for being a pain in the ... well, a pain

[Erwin]

That's a very useful discovery. In all CM2 games incl CMSF there have been certain vehicles that carry acquirable ammo, but one can't get anyone other than the original crew to mount those vehicles to get at the ammo.

Would be great to have this looked at.

Am still hoping that we will have an overhaul of the acquire capability so that ADJACENT units can swap/acquire ammo and even weapons (with restrictions so you can't give one unit more than a certain number of, say, MG's etc). The requirement to jump into and out of vehicles is a PITA in WEGO.

[Ranger33]

Another great find! I think this shows how getting super-detailed with everything can backfire a bit (ie CMx1 vs CMx2). The more intricate something is, the more likely some small change somewhere will screw something up, which is what I'm guessing happened here. Or make something which should be simple into a micro-management nightmare (ie acquiring ammo from vehicles).

[Doug Williams]

Excellent work, Baneman.

[womble]

Can HMG teams use the "Split Crew" command? If they could, there wouldn't be a need for their ride to have a dedicated gunner; one of the teams could leave a man behind for the purpose. Not that it changes the awkwardness of having 11 spaces and 12 passengers, currently...

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Good catch Baneman. You're on a roll!

Regards

KR

[c3k]

While in the Ammo Scavenging thread I was about to moan about something else I noticed quite recently. Then I decided to check my facts before opening my big mouth. So once again I did a bit of (easy) testing, selecting Hanomags and looking at things pertaining.

In a recent QB I started against the AI to check the 2.01 features I ( as usual, if at all possible, since I love them ) bought a couple of 251/9 Stummels.

During the setup phase I was going through my usual up-ammoing evolutions with my troops and came up on the fact that I couldn't put anyone into the Stummel to get their ammo.

Now I was pretty certain that I used to do this ( even though you have to get the crew out first ).

Luckily I never bothered to patch my backup install of CMBN, so I tried the same thing in version 1.10 - and it worked.

With my dander now well up, I mucked about with a few other things and found quite a few changes/differences between 1.10 and 2.01 - to whit :

251/9 Stummel

1.10 : Crew Dismounts - can put any other 4 man group in and Acquire Ammo.

2.01 : Crew Bails Out - no one else can get in.

- This is strange since it still carries 2k of MG ammo in an Acquirable state ie. white not green lettering. But now there's no way for anyone to get at it ( until/if Acquire is ever changed to allow if from outside the vehicle ).

This seems to apply to all crew-only vehicles now eg. 250/9 etc.

When I wrote recently about who gets a gunner and who doesn't, I quoted my old 2011 post - which c3k told me was wrong.

It seems that who gets a gunner and who doesn't has also changed.

This affects German HMG teams in Armored PzG Battalions

In 2011 I wrote : "HMG squads 2 per 251/1 : No Gunner ( makes sense as the HMG squads are 6 men each and a dedicated gunner in a 251/1 takes up one of the 12 passenger slots )."

- Except that NOW in 2.01, this 251/1 DOES come with a gunner and thus one of the 2 HMG teams no longer fits in the vehicle

- I quickly tested in 1.10 and my original statement is true - both teams go in the 251/1 and there's no dedicated gunner.

251/10 :

1.10 - shows 2 crew slots and 4 passenger slots.

2.01 - shows 3 crew slots ( 1 is always empty - puzzling - what's it there for then ? ) and 3 passenger slots. Despite the empty state of the crew slot, you can now only put a maximum of 3 passengers in, again reducing the Ammo acquiring ability.

- not comprehensively tested, there may be cases with 4 man HQ's where the old system applies.

So .. uh .. is this all working as intended ??

Particularly with regard to the HMG teams which now cannot both be transported by their ... transport.

The crew thing is mostly awkward, but does raise the question of why these vehicles are carrying theoretically Acquirable ammo that no one can actually get.

And apologies for being a pain in the ... well, a pain

Nicely done. I'll verify (just to be sure), and then you can consider BFC to've been notified.

Off to eat bon-bons whilst baneman continues his yoeman's work.

Thanks,

Ken

[akd]

While in the Ammo Scavenging thread I was about to moan about something else I noticed quite recently. Then I decided to check my facts before opening my big mouth. So once again I did a bit of (easy) testing, selecting Hanomags and looking at things pertaining.

In a recent QB I started against the AI to check the 2.01 features I ( as usual, if at all possible, since I love them ) bought a couple of 251/9 Stummels.

During the setup phase I was going through my usual up-ammoing evolutions with my troops and came up on the fact that I couldn't put anyone into the Stummel to get their ammo.

Now I was pretty certain that I used to do this ( even though you have to get the crew out first ).

Luckily I never bothered to patch my backup install of CMBN, so I tried the same thing in version 1.10 - and it worked.

With my dander now well up, I mucked about with a few other things and found quite a few changes/differences between 1.10 and 2.01 - to whit :

251/9 Stummel

1.10 : Crew Dismounts - can put any other 4 man group in and Acquire Ammo.

2.01 : Crew Bails Out - no one else can get in.

- This is strange since it still carries 2k of MG ammo in an Acquirable state ie. white not green lettering. But now there's no way for anyone to get at it ( until/if Acquire is ever changed to allow if from outside the vehicle ).

This seems to apply to all crew-only vehicles now eg. 250/9 etc.

Yup, this was a fix. The 251/9 was dedicated SP artillery with specialist crew, more akin to the Wespe than a general 251/1, and not used for transport/supply. The MG ammo is likely just a carry over from the base vehicle and should be removed.

When I wrote recently about who gets a gunner and who doesn't, I quoted my old 2011 post - which c3k told me was wrong.

It seems that who gets a gunner and who doesn't has also changed.

This affects German HMG teams in Armored PzG Battalions

In 2011 I wrote : "HMG squads 2 per 251/1 : No Gunner ( makes sense as the HMG squads are 6 men each and a dedicated gunner in a 251/1 takes up one of the 12 passenger slots )."

- Except that NOW in 2.01, this 251/1 DOES come with a gunner and thus one of the 2 HMG teams no longer fits in the vehicle

- I quickly tested in 1.10 and my original statement is true - both teams go in the 251/1 and there's no dedicated gunner.

Already reported here and internally for CMBN and already fixed for Gustav Line. I'll follow up on the previous report for CMBN.

251/10 :

1.10 - shows 2 crew slots and 4 passenger slots.

2.01 - shows 3 crew slots ( 1 is always empty - puzzling - what's it there for then ? ) and 3 passenger slots. Despite the empty state of the crew slot, you can now only put a maximum of 3 passengers in, again reducing the Ammo acquiring ability.

- not comprehensively tested, there may be cases with 4 man HQ's where the old system applies.

So .. uh .. is this all working as intended ??

Particularly with regard to the HMG teams which now cannot both be transported by their ... transport.

The crew thing is mostly awkward, but does raise the question of why these vehicles are carrying theoretically Acquirable ammo that no one can actually get.

And apologies for being a pain in the ... well, a pain

The 251/10 gained a dedicated gunner in the 1944 fG organization, so that slot should either be filled with another crew member, or the restriction on passengers filling the crew slots on the vehicle needs to be lifted. This vehicle is a bit of gray area because it is both an SP gun and organic transport.

[Badger73]

<snipped>

And apologies for being a pain in the ... well, a pain

Please don't apologize, Baneman! This is excellent research. Kudos, thank you, and don't stop! Good luck and good gaming.

[Hister]

@ck3 and akd, are you guys internal beta testers?

[Baneman]

The 251/9 was dedicated SP artillery with specialist crew, more akin to the Wespe than a general 251/1, and not used for transport/supply. The MG ammo is likely just a carry over from the base vehicle and should be removed.

Makes sense.

No need to remove it if Acquire is going to one day let us do the job from adjacent the vehicle ... right ? .. hint hint .. hope hope ;)

The 251/10 gained a dedicated gunner in the 1944 fG organization, so that slot should either be filled with another crew member, or the restriction on passengers filling the crew slots on the vehicle needs to be lifted. This vehicle is a bit of gray area because it is both an SP gun and organic transport.

Didn't know that about dedicated gunner, but I can see your point about its "grey" nature especially since even in 1.10, if you put 2 groups of 3 into it, it shows 3 crew slots occupied and 3 passenger slots occupied even though normally it shows 2 : 4

Oh, and thanks for the feedback response ( you and c3k ), cheers

[akd]

Makes sense.

No need to remove it if Acquire is going to one day let us do the job from adjacent the vehicle ... right ? .. hint hint .. hope hope ;)

Didn't know that about dedicated gunner, but I can see your point about its "grey" nature especially since even in 1.10, if you put 2 groups of 3 into it, it shows 3 crew slots occupied and 3 passenger slots occupied even though normally it shows 2 : 4

Oops, I meant to write dedicated loader there, not gunner, thus 3 slots, but what changed was the requirement for the crew to operate the vehicle and armament, preventing a passenger from filling the 3rd slot.

[c3k]

@ck3 and akd, are you guys internal beta testers?

Hister: Yes, we both are.

Ken

[Vanir Ausf B]

The 250/10 allows passengers to fill all 4 slots (3 crew, 1 passenger) after the crew bails. Actually, the crew of the 250/10 can only Dismount since there is no Bail command available, unlike the 251/10.