Better To Move Quick And Rest Than Move Normal?

[DaddyO]

I'm in an assault Quick Battle on a larger map than I'm used to (being inexerienced at the game) and I'm trying to figure out how best to manage troop movements over larger distances while maintaining the best possible fighting condition.

The conditions so far are combat-free except for a tragic first-turn heavy artillery strike that shattered one of my three rifle platoons. The terrain is not difficult.

So do you think it is best under these circumstances to cover large distances using Quick and then allow a couple of turns to rest, or to move Normal over the three turns with no rest at the end?

As a separate matter, I requested a 30-minute Quick Battle but I've used nearly a third of that time already just traveling with due caution to what I would consider the true staging areas for my assault. Most of my QB parameters were set to Random. I think the distances alone should have made this a 45 minute battle. Am I to assume that I could have made these initial movements unopposed?

[Badger73]

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So do you think it is best under these circumstances to cover large distances using Quick and then allow a couple of turns to rest, or to move Normal over the three turns with no rest at the end?

<snipped>

Consensus from more veteran players shows preference for several QUICK moves with rest to cover more ground in a shorter period of time. I favor this as well because I like to get my forces as far forward as possible and have more real estate under my tactical control when the battle unfolds.

However, when or if you encounter mines / minefields, slow down to MOVE. The manual says that mines are more easily detected by troops at MOVE or SLOW speeds.

A poor man's compromise is to split some squads down to scout teams and have the scouts QUICK march and recon ahead of the main formation MOVE. Then you've both advanced forward on the battlefield without sticking out the necks of your main force.

So, all things being equal, I find it "best" to QUICK and REST instead of MOVE over long distances in order to heed the advice of Confederate general Nathaniel Bedford Forrest and "git thar' quickest with the mostest".

Good luck and good gaming.

[Seedorf81]

What I do when moving over larger distances is varying the MOVE and QUICK commands.

On easygoing terrain I tend to use QUICK, when going through fields with mud (brown, looks a bit like just been ploughed), dense trees or wheat I use MOVE. And when crossing hedges/bocage also MOVE.

And when danger is close or suspected then I use QUICK again.

So my waypointserie looks like:

First 100-200 m QUICK (on grass)

then 50 m MOVE (still on grass) so my men can rest a little,

then QUICK (grass) until I reach a fence. MOVE until over the fence and QUICK again until forest. In forest MOVE until about 20 m from edge of next field, where I suspect the enemy to be dug in on opposite side, and of those final 20 m I use QUICK for 10-15 m (because of better situational awareness of my men) and the last meters I use SLOW (With short coverarc) or HUNT. That depends on how stealthy I want to be.

But like many things in Combat Mission it is a matter of trial and error and experience. Good luck.

[MengJiaoRedux]

What I do when moving over larger distances is varying the MOVE and QUICK commands.

On easygoing terrain I tend to use QUICK, when going through fields with mud (brown, looks a bit like just been ploughed), dense trees or wheat I use MOVE. And when crossing hedges/bocage also MOVE.

And when danger is close or suspected then I use QUICK again.

So my waypointserie looks like:

First 100-200 m QUICK (on grass)

then 50 m MOVE (still on grass) so my men can rest a little,

then QUICK (grass) until I reach a fence. MOVE until over the fence and QUICK again until forest. In forest MOVE until about 20 m from edge of next field, where I suspect the enemy to be dug in on opposite side, and of those final 20 m I use QUICK for 10-15 m (because of better situational awareness of my men) and the last meters I use SLOW (With short coverarc) or HUNT. That depends on how stealthy I want to be.

But like many things in Combat Mission it is a matter of trial and error and experience. Good luck.

I've been using quick more often lately, but usually as a quick adaptation to things.

I play in realtime so I often give a platoon-level move command just to get things sorted out, then as things get clearer, move a squad or a tank forward in quick to a relatively sheltered point and then scout more carefully from there. So large formations are moving along steadily in move and the probing or scouting elements are moving quickly at times and then slowing down to look around.

[baron Jacquinot]

I'm in an assault Quick Battle on a larger map than I'm used to (being inexerienced at the game) and I'm trying to figure out how best to manage troop movements over larger distances while maintaining the best possible fighting condition.

The conditions so far are combat-free except for a tragic first-turn heavy artillery strike that shattered one of my three rifle platoons. The terrain is not difficult.

So do you think it is best under these circumstances to cover large distances using Quick and then allow a couple of turns to rest, or to move Normal over the three turns with no rest at the end?

As a separate matter, I requested a 30-minute Quick Battle but I've used nearly a third of that time already just traveling with due caution to what I would consider the true staging areas for my assault. Most of my QB parameters were set to Random. I think the distances alone should have made this a 45 minute battle. Am I to assume that I could have made these initial movements unopposed?

Better use panzergrenadiers with they halftracks.

[Michael Emrys]

What I have done is to split my squads into teams. Then I move them in sequence so that at least one team is stationary and able to give supporting return fire if the enemy starts shooting while the other teams are moving. So it goes like this: A team gets a 40-50 meter bound using Quick. After a ten second pause, B team gets a similar bound. After a twenty second pause, C team gets a similar bound. After a ten second pause, A team gets a second bound. And so on. All teams get a ten second pause at the end of each bound to catch their wind and to check out if they see anything and possibly open fire on it. Most of the time, at least two of the teams have completed all their plotted moves by the end of the minute. They are resting and observing. On good terrain they never get tired. I avoid plotting more than one minute's worth of movement per turn as that lessens the chance that they will blunder into an ambush. In difficult terrain or going uphill I use shorter bounds, like 20-25 meters. If I think contact with the enemy is imminent, I will use shorter bounds and longer pauses. I will also try to move from cover to cover.

Michael

[womble]

Just use Quick. On flat ground it's significantly faster. I haven't done any formal systematic tests on steep hills, but my feeling from my FI experience is that the hilliness of the terrain doesn't make Quick tire your troops out so much faster that the speed advantage (Rested-to-Rested) is negated, and you still get your troops to where they're going sooner than Move, so they can be assessing the situation (or adjusting it with bullets) while the slowpokes are still marching.

But in normal CMBN-type topography, just use Quick until you first see them tired, then rest them til they can Fast again if they need to. Or push 'em even harder, and keep them Tired; Fast isn't that much of an improvement over Quick anyway, and if you're planning on it, you're probably trying something too risky anyway.

[agusto]

What I do when moving over larger distances is varying the MOVE and QUICK commands.

On easygoing terrain I tend to use QUICK, when going through fields with mud (brown, looks a bit like just been ploughed), dense trees or wheat I use MOVE. And when crossing hedges/bocage also MOVE.

I have made similar experiences in CMFI in the US campaign. You cant QUICK you troops up a steep hill or a mountain with diffiult micro terrain like lots of rocks effectively, they will be tired within 1-2 turns while not being significantly faster than with MOVE.

But usually i use QUICK too and let them rest for a few turns when they get too tired.

[thejetset]

The conditions so far are combat-free except for a tragic first-turn heavy artillery strike that shattered one of my three rifle platoons.

Pretty poor taste of your opponent to hit your setup zone with an artillery strike. ..... In meeting engagements they should not be allowed. In Attack/Defend circumstances, only the attacker should be able to have a pre-planned strike into the defender's, much larger, setup zone.

..... anyway .... I prefer to use the "Move Quick" order with split-squads and fairly frequent stops if I think they could come into contact.

If I'm just moving troops from one end of the map to the other and am not worried about combat, I will use a combination of "Move" and "Move Quick" to keep their condition at "Tiring" or "Ready".

[Doug Williams]

Daddy-O, as you have now discovered, 30 minutes just isn't enough time on larger maps. If the map is "medium" size, do a 45 or 60 minute game. If larger than that, go longer. 30 minute games, IMO, should be reserved for Small or Tiny maps.

Secondly, as thejetset pointed out, it was rather "gamey" of your opponent to bombard your (the attacker) setup zone. Find a better opponent in the future. Joining a gaming club is a good way.

Thirdly, I do use "Move" quite a bit, but only when there is plenty of time, and my troops are out of harm's way. If there is a chance of them getting shot at, "Quick" (with resting) is better.

Fourthly (and last), this is WW2. If you are on the attack and your troops have a lot of ground to cover, buy them some transportation. Just remember to keep it out of the way of AT guns (easier said than done).

[ForwardObserver]

What I have done is to split my squads into teams. Then I move them in sequence so that at least one team is stationary and able to give supporting return fire if the enemy starts shooting while the other teams are moving. So it goes like this: A team gets a 40-50 meter bound using Quick. After a ten second pause, B team gets a similar bound. After a twenty second pause, C team gets a similar bound. After a ten second pause, A team gets a second bound. And so on. All teams get a ten second pause at the end of each bound to catch their wind and to check out if they see anything and possibly open fire on it. Most of the time, at least two of the teams have completed all their plotted moves by the end of the minute. They are resting and observing. On good terrain they never get tired. I avoid plotting more than one minute's worth of movement per turn as that lessens the chance that they will blunder into an ambush. In difficult terrain or going uphill I use shorter bounds, like 20-25 meters. If I think contact with the enemy is imminent, I will use shorter bounds and longer pauses. I will also try to move from cover to cover.

That. I've found that the QUICK bounding movements allow me to coordinate well with AFV's on MOVE or SLOW.

I only use Move to move troops behind my lines, well away from enemy fires. In forests or terrain which offers a lot of concealment to enemy troops, I use short bounds but rather than quick, the HUNT command. I use FAST only in the last leg of an assault on an enemy position, and the team moving so is always covered by other troops on overwatch or doing area fire on suspected enemy positions. I only use SLOW when I want to infiltrate through a gap between enemy fields of fire or flank an enemy force, and only by night or on terrain that offers a lot of concealment.

For vehicles I always use FAST when in sight of the enemy, unless they're doing infantry support and always moving from hull down position to hull down position, with other AFV's on overwatch. SLOW is useful to negotiate fences, low walls and tight corners and bridges. Depending on how hurried I'm to shift AFV's behind my line, I use either MOVE or QUICK.

[DaddyO]

Thanks to all for the feedback.

I should clarify, I made the quick battle size random, but I selected 30 minutes for the battle. Therefore the time was determined before the size of the map. I was flabbergasted when the QB AI chose such a large map.

Re: the awful arty strike, it was not in my setup zone, but in the second (or third minute). One of my three Rifle platoons was assembling in a large stand of scattered trees, out of sight of the enemy and a ways off the road. The strike was highly fortuitous for the enemy, centering my unit, and it was pretty heavy stuff. It took me about 10 turns to salvage the survivors for the battle.

Then later, since my first post, I used another platoon to capture three outlying houses on the left flank of my axis of attack, which they did. Then I tasked one squad, whose house had been unoccupied, to exit and clear a treed area that posed a possible threat behind them. On the way they ran smack into, you guessed it, a brief but intense artillery barrage that killed four soldiers immediately. The guys in the houses were unharmed.

Two AI artillery strikes, both just happened to land centered on large groups of riflemen. I kept my infantry from staying in one place too long, but it didn't matter in this particular game. The good news is, that during the barrage, one squad spotted an AT gun and nailed the gunner at distance. You lose some, you win some.

This QB is really interesting, as I'm finally engaging the enemy with 10 minutes left. I hope the game allows me to go overtime.

[MikeyD]

I've found 30 min QBs on a large map with lots of troops will often be generous with extra time allotted after you go into the red numbers. Like 20 more minutes extra time often. Of course that's not something you can absolutely rely on in making your tactical plans.

[DaddyO]

Well it ended up I did get extra time. By 4 or 5 minutes of "overtime" things went according to plan and I obtained an Allied Total Victory, this of course in Basic Training mode. In only had a few more casualties than the ones suffered in the artillery strikes (I actually received a third one. It seems the AI/Axis had received at least three forward observers, and the key to their chance at victory was apparently artillery. It turned out I could have acted much more agressively early in the contest, but without solid intel to that effect I had to act with at least some degree of prudence. Taking out a key AT gun (a lucky rifle shot mentioned above), and after several attempts an armored recon vehicle with my own artillery also helped.

[DaddyO]

Some questions that gnawed at me the whole QB:

1. How do I handle my Weapons Platoon HQ when I have only one and yet my attack needs demand multiple axes of attack? It is guaranteed that some of my mortars or heavy machine guns will be out of C2 unless I keep them all on on axis.

2. Similarly, how do I keep Company HQ in C2 with all my platoon HQs?

I tried to keep both Weapons and Company HQs in the center of the map back of the front lines as I advanced, but I still ended up with platoons out of C2.

3. What is the best use of an XO unit attached to Company HQ? Do I use him to be a sort of deputy commander and make him responsible for one side of the battlefield while the HQ takes the other? Or does he just sort of follow Company HQ around so he can take over in case his boss is killed or wounded?

4. A number of times I had units accept orders during the orders phase only to find out during or after the turn that they had stayed put and not followed them. They were not panic, or shaken, they were in the company of tanks, no enemy was in the immediate vicinity, and I noticed it seems to happen when I order them to move up to a building and then assault it (in case there was unspotted enemy troops present). In some cases the squad leader had been killed a bunch of turns ago, so perhaps that is it, but in other cases not even that was the case. Some were Regulars, others Green. I could find no consistent explanation. One thing I wondered was whether some buildings are considered "boarded up" and cannot be entered. I dunno. Perhaps I just need more experience to figure out what's going on there.

[Michael Emrys]

Similarly, how do I keep Company HQ in C2 with all my platoon HQs?

Any HQ will be out of contact while it is moving (HQs in radio vehicles an exception?). Once it stops somewhere it will regain contact as long as it has a radio and that radio is working. Or if it is within sight/sound of its parent HQ, it will stay in C2.

Michael

[poesel]

DaddyO - please note that in Basic Training mode the call times for artillery are much reduced. This may be the cause why the AI got you twice with spot on artillery.

Also don't be afraid of the higher difficult levels. It doesn't make the AI better. It just puts more realistic restrictions and durations in place.

[DaddyO]

Thanks for the further comments, all.

[womble]

Some questions that gnawed at me the whole QB:

1. How do I handle my Weapons Platoon HQ when I have only one and yet my attack needs demand multiple axes of attack? It is guaranteed that some of my mortars or heavy machine guns will be out of C2 unless I keep them all on on axis.

I tend to put my Weapons Platoon HQ with my mortars, if I want to be able to call them indirect. If they're going into the front line, I'll just pick one to tag along with. Support weapons not having the "steadying influence" of their HQ isn't anywhere near as critical, in my assessment, as it would be for a line rifle platoon, say.

2. Similarly, how do I keep Company HQ in C2 with all my platoon HQs?

The Americans are blessed with radios in all Platoon HQs, so it's relatively simple at that level, with the provisos previously expressed about movement interrupting communications. It's a benefit and advantage that they can be in at least a certain level of C2 while operating independently. Lacking radios, it's difficult, at least in a dynamic situation and close terrain.

I tried to keep both Weapons and Company HQs in the center of the map back of the front lines as I advanced, but I still ended up with platoons out of C2.

Even if you haven't got a handy walkie-talkie, it's not such a huge issue having the platoon HQ out of C2. It'll mean spotting info is disemminated less quickly, but the actual morale effects of a complete C2 chain are subtle-to-negligible for your rifle squads, past their immediate HQ, and the 'toon HQ should hopefully not be in need of reassurance

3. What is the best use of an XO unit attached to Company HQ? Do I use him to be a sort of deputy commander and make him responsible for one side of the battlefield while the HQ takes the other? Or does he just sort of follow Company HQ around so he can take over in case his boss is killed or wounded?

Most of the time an XO is just waiting for "dead man's shoes" to step into. They don't extend the C2 chain until the "Old Man" is hors de combat, which I think is a shame; I always thought the XO's role was to be the "right hand" of the CO, taking charge of detachments on independent duty, kind of thing. As it is, you either use them as medics, or as another rifle team, or, if they're "better" quality than your standard team, have them grab a 'zook out of an M3 and go huntin'. They often (?always?/?sometimes? - I haven't tried every XO in every formation...) have artillery call privileges, even though they don't have a radio, so you could use them as spotters. The lack of radio hampers them when they do take over from the original CO upon his demise, as they need to be near a radio-equipped unit to extend the C2 chain upwards if they're not in direct range of Bttn, and downwards to any Platoons not in direct range of the XO.

4. A number of times I had units accept orders during the orders phase only to find out during or after the turn that they had stayed put and not followed them. They were not panic, or shaken, they were in the company of tanks, no enemy was in the immediate vicinity, and I noticed it seems to happen when I order them to move up to a building and then assault it...

Were you perhaps using "Hunt" for the assault? They'll stop if they see any enemy contacts, or even if they think there are enemy in the next village, as far as I can tell. That's the only reason I can think that they might be stopping as you describe.

[DaddyO]

Thanks for the detailed and complete response, wombie.

Re: the final point, I did use Hunt for the troops to get to the doorstep of the houses, then Assault to actually go in. I think your guess might be right. So the lesson I'm hearing from you is do not use Hunt+Assault, use Quick+Assault.

Thanks for the C2 help as well, and that the XO is largely an appendage unless the CO bites the dust.

[Michael Emrys]

...that the XO is largely an appendage unless the CO bites the dust.

Yeah, it's current employment is not satisfactory. A good XO should be able to take over if a platoon HQ gets whacked, or to lead an ad hoc battle group. But I am not sure how to define what a "good" XO would possess as defining attributes within the game. Strong leadership and morale factors, I suppose. But what else?

Michael

[sburke]

Yeah, it's current employment is not satisfactory. A good XO should be able to take over if a platoon HQ gets whacked, or to lead an ad hoc battle group. But I am not sure how to define what a "good" XO would possess as defining attributes within the game. Strong leadership and morale factors, I suppose. But what else?

Michael

A prominent cleft chin, a certain steely look in the eye with perhaps just a bit of a twinkle, a gallant pose standing as if there was a strong wind blowing from directly ahead. Maybe a well pressed, freshly starched spotlessly clean uniform. A gravely voice voice as if his commands were coming from deep within the earth.

[Killkess]

Pretty poor taste of your opponent to hit your setup zone with an artillery strike. ..... In meeting engagements they should not be allowed. In Attack/Defend circumstances, only the attacker should be able to have a pre-planned strike into the defender's, much larger, setup zone.

Kursk comes to my mind... why a defender should not be allowed to use artillery against known enemy troop concentrations? I feel that the problem often is the very small and pretty predictable setup zones.

[womble]

Thanks for the detailed and complete response, wombie.

You're welcome!

Re: the final point, I did use Hunt for the troops to get to the doorstep of the houses, then Assault to actually go in. I think your guess might be right. So the lesson I'm hearing from you is do not use Hunt+Assault, use Quick+Assault.

"Assault" isn't really for making a hard entry to a building. Its special use is for when your squads aren't split (which I personally recommend you do at setup if you can bear the micro), when it allows your squad's teams to use bounding or caterpillar overwatch to move without you having to set waypoints for each team, and does make sure that only one team is moving at a time. Useful, admittedly, for when an unsplit squad is making entry, but it doesn't convey any mechanical advantage over Quick, AIUI.

Personally, I've had the most success with using "Slow" to enter. Your troops remain aware of their surroundings and will pause to return fire if the objective hides troops that are not suppressed to the point of catatonia. They'll use grenades on the move if you've given them an area fire order into the building. Fast movers tend not to see any hidden enemy until they've been shot at a lot, increasing casualties and the chance of a break. Also, sneaking in (with a cover arc set at the arrival waypoint) means that enemy on the far side of the building may not see your invading troops.

Also, if you're undertaking MOUT, you'll probably want your squads split into teams anyway, since most indoor spaces pack your full squads way too tight for comfort. It means that, of a three-team US squad, you can have two teams providing covering fire while one team enters, and the two supporting teams don't then have to follow into the building, as they would if you used the Assault command.

[Seedorf81]

A prominent cleft chin, a certain steely look in the eye with perhaps just a bit of a twinkle, a gallant pose standing as if there was a strong wind blowing from directly ahead. Maybe a well pressed, freshly starched spotlessly clean uniform. A gravely voice voice as if his commands were coming from deep within the earth.

Hear, hear!

Shouldn't daddy's be like this, too?