timmyc69 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 How is that for turnabout. I can't thank all you guys enough. You really gave me great advice, where to find answers, and I am sorry that I ever used the word "hate"...as in "Hate the Game"...it is an amazing game. Truly is...I am still a raw newbie boot but I am learning with each turn. Playing a couple of "tiny" battles with one veteran of the game and a newbie like myself. Just jumped in to PBEM and it is going great. I think that just the knowledge that one is playing a real opponent makes you stop and think and I am fortunate to have an experienced player who is free with tips and answers. I think it may be the "tiny" arena that is responsible for just plain having a lot of fun, win or lose. The larger scenarios are rather daunting and overwhelming in size but good to play against the A.I. for learning. But there are enough tiny ones to keep one busy with friends for a while and it isn't so discouraging when only managing a couple vehicles, a mortar or two and four or five squads. Thanks again...I so regret that stupid comment just because I was initially overwhelmed, now knowing it was only my narrow-minded view of the old classic v.s. the new CM...and dwelling too much on the familiar instead of reveling in this new concept. All you fellows who answered my original post really gave me a great deal of resources that have helped from a simple..."Duhh...read the manual, to video tutorial links and specific answers to simple questions...it is true...I LOVE THE GAME. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pak40 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Awesome. Glad you're enjoying it. Now quit wasting time posting and get back to playing! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Hey, if the experienced player beats you, post his name so we can all know who got his jollies beating the newb. If YOU beat HIM, well, post his name so we can all make fun of him! TacAI is very good, especially when a good designer makes the battle, but pbem is a whole different kind of good. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 That's the spirit Tim. You now see that Bruce Lee sums it up when he said "When water goes into the tea pot it becomes the tea pot. When water goes into a cup it becomes the cup. Be like water my friend". Being like water feels pretty good doesn't it. Keep with it, and one day you will be the guy helping a newb. Good luck with your first PBEM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyc69 Posted January 29, 2013 Author Share Posted January 29, 2013 Actually my opponent doesn't pull any punches but he does try to help me explaining things...I think I may have surprised him after he explained a tactic in the hedgerows and I used the tactic to take out his armored car...not sure he will give me more hints...at least in this particular scenario which is almost finished...we pretty much beat each other up. Not sure that either of have enough to be declared in control of the vast area encompassed by the objective. Thanks for the encouragement...it really is a remarkable game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altipueri Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Go outside and meet some girls. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
easytarget Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Go outside and meet some girls. Is that where they keep them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 30, 2013 Share Posted January 30, 2013 Not sure that either of have enough to be declared in control of the vast area encompassed by the objective. Just so you know: it doesn't matter how much you have in a VL, only that you have something in it. Even if you (or your opponent) only has a single Broken/Panicing, out of ammo, out of C2 crew member within the boundaries of the VL, it counts as contesting posession. To claim a VL you have to entirely clear it of enemy; every nook and cranny has to be checked to root out any stragglers. It sounds like your battle might be decided on other VP allocations 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmyc69 Posted February 9, 2013 Author Share Posted February 9, 2013 Got whitewashed three times in succession by the vet in tiny battles...apparently I am too cautious and didn't step out and forward for the victory objectives quickly enough. But I seem to be learning the mechanics of the game...though the hard way. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Much easier to learn good tactics from being overly cautious than from being overly aggressive. Hang in there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Try some attack/defend battles. Meeting engagements often favor who can race to the victory location(s) quickest. The winner of the race is then the defender and has the advantage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Try some attack/defend battles. Meeting engagements often favor who can race to the victory location(s) quickest. The winner of the race is then the defender and has the advantage. +1 In addition ME's were very rare compared to attack/defend engagements. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Try some attack/defend battles. Meeting engagements often favor who can race to the victory location(s) quickest. The winner of the race is then the defender and has the advantage. So you are saying then that in an attack/defend battle the defender is always favored, and has the advantage? ME fights are no different except there is no clear attacker/ defender from the beginning. True speed is important in the opening deploying, but once the situation develops speed changes gears. If the opponent grabs VL first then change to an attack mindset no different than if one was the attacker from the beginning. In this way I have always found ME engagement more interesting in their uncertainty, which I find more dynamic. Timmy study Sun Tzu also. His advice applies to virtual warfare too. Principle 4: Speed and preperation (Think this in opening of ME battle) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 ME's are good because both forces get the same amount of points. Perhaps in real life defenders inherently have an advantage, but this isn't as much so in QBs in CM. For one, in real life attackers don't always get the 3:1 ratio many think necessary to win. In QBs attackers do, and the defender has to pull it off just right to stop them. Also as it is now fortifications don't work as well as in real life, nor are ATG's as easily hidden and city fighting doesn't give defenders a lot of inherent advantages they would have in real life - e.g. firing fausts from buildings, debris and ruins everywhere, tanks not being able to elevate guns high enough, shooting around corners. Timmy I think the best way to learn CM is to play a human opponent. Not just play him and get your ass kicked, but play him and have a dialogue going about whats happening, and questions you have. It should be less (at first) about who wins and more about explaining the game, and showing things. The game never shines as brightly as when humans are in control, and if you think it seems real against the AI, it seems like WW2 come to life sometimes against humans. Message me if you want to play by email (which you can use dropbox or skype for as well. I often play by email against people and get half a battle done in a day, sending turns back and forth) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Tactics/strategy teach the attacker should have 3:1 (or greater) force advantage. In a ME battle the forces are usually equal, thus the guy that reaches the objective first becomes the defender and holds the advantage. The slow guy is then forced to attack at 1:1 force ratio. In CM attack/defend scenarios, the scenario designers put in a force ratio that allows a balanced out come (win some/ lose some). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Exactly. And you're right - usually. Reaching the objective first holds it's own drawbacks - Rushing exposes you to easy ambush - your troops will be tired unless they take vulnerable trucks or half tracks. Any objective in an ME, especially a town or crossroads will probably be TRP'd by an opponent. In that case when you rush in you'll be greeted with a $hit-storm of artillery fire. When I was less experienced I'd rush in and hold the objectives. Now as my playing has matured I simply DENY the objectives. TRPs. Ill hide on the lee side of the town, as he rushes in my troops will open up, and only his forward elements can engage. All of his base of fire units, and armor wont be able to see my men behind the town or objective. Things like this can quite change things. Often the objective on a map isnt necessarily the best place to be - If there's an imposing height on the map I'll go there and mercilessly shell my opponents men flooding into the objective =D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Tactics/strategy teach the attacker should have 3:1 (or greater) force advantage. In a ME battle the forces are usually equal, thus the guy that reaches the objective first becomes the defender and holds the advantage. The slow guy is then forced to attack at 1:1 force ratio. In CM attack/defend scenarios, the scenario designers put in a force ratio that allows a balanced out come (win some/ lose some). Lt Belenko is correct. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 9, 2013 Share Posted February 9, 2013 Exactly. And you're right - usually. Reaching the objective first holds it's own drawbacks - Rushing exposes you to easy ambush - your troops will be tired unless they take vulnerable trucks or half tracks. Any objective in an ME, especially a town or crossroads will probably be TRP'd by an opponent. In that case when you rush in you'll be greeted with a $hit-storm of artillery fire. When I was less experienced I'd rush in and hold the objectives. Now as my playing has matured I simply DENY the objectives. TRPs. Ill hide on the lee side of the town, as he rushes in my troops will open up, and only his forward elements can engage. All of his base of fire units, and armor wont be able to see my men behind the town or objective. Things like this can quite change things. Often the objective on a map isnt necessarily the best place to be - If there's an imposing height on the map I'll go there and mercilessly shell my opponents men flooding into the objective =D Sublime is correct also, IMO. A newbie was getting PWND by a more veteran opponent in some meeting engagements, because the more veteran opponent rushed to the objective(s) and thus became the defender, probably knowing the newbie would not have any TRPs on the objectives. I suggested he try some attack/defend battles instead. :-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinnart Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Good point Lt Belenko. I guess I never consider, or let the ratio bother me in that I have had ME battles where my opponent occupied the VL first, and I still beat him off of it to win. Sublime is also correct in that not being first to VL can be used to advantage too, but I do not allow TRP in ME games. I prefer actual spotting for artillery for both players. It is about getting best ground first, and not nessearily the VL first. In Timmy’s case, or any newbie they probably are better off sticking to attack/defend t\rather than ME battles to learn the game. ME battles are not as cut and dry in approach. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 ...in real life attackers don't always get the 3:1 ratio many think necessary to win. In QBs attackers do... 3:1? I haven't seen that. A bit less than 2:1, points-wise, isn't it? Usually. I've certainly never had a Battalion assaulting a single company in a QB... As the attacker your job is to generate the local overwhelming superiority that allows you to advance to generate the next overwhelming superiority and defeat the defender in detail. As the defender, it's your job to stop that. You surely aren't just handed a huge numerical advantage in the points-buying stage... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 3:1? I haven't seen that. A bit less than 2:1, points-wise, isn't it? Usually. I've certainly never had a Battalion assaulting a single company in a QB... As the attacker your job is to generate the local overwhelming superiority that allows you to advance to generate the next overwhelming superiority and defeat the defender in detail. As the defender, it's your job to stop that. You surely aren't just handed a huge numerical advantage in the points-buying stage... Do not quibble, Sir. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 10, 2013 Share Posted February 10, 2013 Hmm. Perhaps I'm wrong but the general gist I've noticed attack/defend on HUGE is that attacker gets roughly 9k and defender around 3-3.5k? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Do not quibble, Sir. Do not tell me what to do, sirrah. Advice to newbies, which this thread is, should be accurate and as precise as possible. If it were true that attack defend battles automatically handed the attacker a 3:1 superiority, they truly would be pointless, boring, one-sided things that you wouldn't want to play as either side. That is, as you'll see below, not the case. Hmm. Perhaps I'm wrong but the general gist I've noticed attack/defend on HUGE is that attacker gets roughly 9k and defender around 3-3.5k? I went and looked in BNv1.11, for a "Huge" battle (I'd be surprised if the proportions differ dependent on battle size): Type - Attack/Defend Asslt - 9342/5076 Attck - 8986/5432 Probe - 8631/5787 ME - 7209/7209 Are you sure you've not got a force adjustment left over from a previous game? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Williams Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Do not tell me what to do, sirrah. Advice to newbies, which this thread is, should be accurate and as precise as possible. If it were true that attack defend battles automatically handed the attacker a 3:1 superiority, they truly would be pointless, boring, one-sided things that you wouldn't want to play as either side. That is, as you'll see below, not the case. I went and looked in BNv1.11, for a "Huge" battle (I'd be surprised if the proportions differ dependent on battle size): Type - Attack/Defend Asslt - 9342/5076 Attck - 8986/5432 Probe - 8631/5787 ME - 7209/7209 Are you sure you've not got a force adjustment left over from a previous game? Can't argue with numbers. Point taken. :-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Yep. You.re right. I'd be surprised if they differed on battle size but now I'm going to look when I get home. I seriously seem to recall playing (maybe they were medium or large) several QBs against someone on the same map. I always would get about 1-2 tanks and a reinforced company vs his 4-5 tanks and 2-3 companies. Still my point stands, though the ratio isn't near as bad as I made out - ME's you get the exact same pointage - whereas in an assault or an attack you have about double the defending force... well.. roughly we all saw how my math worked before 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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