Waiting to buy CMBN

[Quintus Sertorius]

Couple of things I'm finding hard to get used to, such as the viewing controls.

I found this odd at first too. What helped me was to start using the keyboard for 90% of camera control. Occasionally the mouse can help, but in general I stick with the keyboard. I suppose this is dependent on your setup, however. The camera is not bad, but it takes some time to become proficient with it. I don't even think about it anymore, which is how things should be.

[Thomm]

Also, I wish when I had a squad highlighted it told me what each soldier was doing (reloading, aiming, can't see target, etc) as I remember from the Close Combat series.

Text in the left bottom corner of the 3D window gives you this information.

Best regards,

Thomm

[dieseltaylor]

One reason to wait for a full CMBN v2.0 is so you won't have to worry about the $10 v2.0 upgrade expense. But really, between now and then you're going to spend $80 just on pizzas and $30 on coca cola. You'll spend double that amount renting bad movies in an attempt to entertain yourself while waiting.

Kind of sad to see the diet there. : ) Are you trying to say something about gamers? Is that for two or three months? And the TV is obviously rubbish too!!

Per person we spend that much [£50] per month on real foods.

[Vanir Ausf B]

For camera movement I put the cursor in the center of the screen and hold down the left mouse button for "strafe" movement and hold down the right mouse button for "look" movement. Since I play on a laptop I have the left mouse button set to stay locked down if it is held down for several consecutive seconds. I have elevation change mapped to the mouse wheel and Reverse Direction (\), Select Previous Unit (F12), Lock Camera to Unit (TAB), Target (T) and Jump to Location (Ctrl+left click) mapped to mouse buttons.

Don't forget to go into your CMBN\Date folder and rename the "alternative hotkeys.txt" file to "hotkeys.txt" (and rename the current default hotkey.txt file to something else). I don't know of anyone other than Steve likes the default hotkeys.

[SlowMotion]

You seriously have to be some kind of fanatic to not feel bad paying 10USD for a patch! So basically they sell me a game that is broken (CMBN) and then, when they already have the said hardware for sale with CMFI, they ask me to pay to fix their product! If its not greed then I do not know what is.

In 2.0 you pay to get lots of NEW features, not just bug fixes.

[Wodin]

@Karabekain..CMBN isn't broken..are you what people call a Troll?

[dieseltaylor]

wodin - If you think he is a troll then feeding him is not smart.

Alternatively if YOU accept that CMBN needs the $10 patch to majorly improve the game then you can appreciate the logic of the view he is putting.

[noob]

It will be obvious if BF are profiteering, all the units will be wearing solid gold Rolex watches and all the AFV's will be pimped to the max, in fact i'm starting to visualise a Kubelwagen with bouncing suspension and a monster sound system, so if that isn't worth 10 dollars, i don't know what it !

[Squeaker]

Text in the left bottom corner of the 3D window gives you this information.

Thanks Thomm, I didn't spot that down there.

[Vanir Ausf B]

The 10 or 5 dollar "patch" is not a patch. It won't fix any bugs. Anyone who thinks that is what it is for has no clue what they are talking about.

[dieseltaylor]

The 10 or 5 dollar "patch" is not a patch. It won't fix any bugs. Anyone who thinks that is what it is for has no clue what they are talking about.

CMx2 Game Engine v2.0 Upgrade features

Thursday, 21 June 2012

These features are part of Combat Mission: Fortress Italy, and will also be included in the 2.0 Upgrade for Battle for Normandy! And we're not talking some measly bug fixes, these are features often requested by the player community. Without further ado:

The fact that CMFI is a standalone game should not hide the fact that BF has included fixes that are evident from comments on the base game. But in CMBN we are not getting a new game. Adding covered arcs and moveable waypoints may actually be seen as making good a glaring omissions.

[black_prince]

The fact that you might consider the lack of a feature to be a glaring omission doesn't make it a bug and doesn't mean that you are entitled to have the feature backported for free to your game when it subsequently appears in the game series. Any one who felt that CMBN was 'broken' without things like moveable waypoints or armour only arcs was perfectly entitled to refrain from purchasing the game. When colour TVs came out, people didn't get their old black and whites upgraded free of charge, although we now take it for granted that a TV should be capable of displaying images in colour. Rather, they had to pay a premium for models with the new feature. As with other products, there is a process of evolution involved in the development of CM games. It doesn't happen all at once.

I only wish that BF would also give us the option of upgrading CMSF. Get a grip guys-it's only $10!

[dieseltaylor]

The fact that you might consider the lack of a feature to be a glaring omission doesn't make it a bug and doesn't mean that you are entitled to have the feature backported for free to your game when it subsequently appears in the game series. Any one who felt that CMBN was 'broken' without things like moveable waypoints or armour only arcs was perfectly entitled to refrain from purchasing the game. When colour TVs came out, people didn't get their old black and whites upgraded free of charge, although we now take it for granted that a TV should be capable of displaying images in colour. Rather, they had to pay a premium for models with the new feature. As with other products, there is a process of evolution involved in the development of CM games. It doesn't happen all at once.

I only wish that BF would also give us the option of upgrading CMSF. Get a grip guys-it's only $10!

Firstly what is the cost in sterling to you? This glib repetiton "its only $10" is irritating as that is not what it is going to cost non-US citizens.

Your TV analogy is hogwash as apart from colour the TV's provide an identical result and I would not be debarred from watching and discussing a program with another viewer because we had "different versions".

It reminds me of Apple altering their plugs ...

http://www.businessinsider.com/people-are-legitimately-furious-at-apple-over-the-iphone-5s-new-connector-2012-9

We have you buy the short and curlies if you do not pay us £10 you will be destined to find very few players.

As for not buying CMBN because it did not have armour arcs and moveable waypoints I cannot recall these features being mentioned as omitted as part of the marketing and media campaign at the time. Now assuming that they would be included .... well who would have thought otherwise.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Now assuming that they would be included .... well who would have thought otherwise.

Well, me for one. Anyone who had read the forum should have known. Failing that, the complete CMBN manual was posted on the BFC website weeks in advance of the product going on sale. Anyone who assumed those features were in the game has no one to blame but themselves. They weren't in CMSF either.

I don't know of any company that goes out of it's way to denigrate their own product in their advertising. I find it odd that it is considered a failure for BFC to have not done so.

[black_prince]

@ dieseltaylor Even if the cost is £10 I'll still consider it cheap at the price. The TV parallel may not have been the best but it is inter-changeable with countless other possible examples, models of cars with or without ABS, mobiles with or without bluetooth, cars with or without rear view cameras, whatever. The point I was making is that product development happens over time. Just because a feature is desirable, earlier products that lack that feature are not necessarily broken or fundamentally flawed.

If you genuinely feel that the upgrade is not worth the extra money then I cannot understand your concern that you will be restricted to an ever shrinking circle of adversaries. If your arguments have merit then no doubt there will be plenty of like minded people who will not be upgrading to version 2.0.

WRT your last point, you only have yourself to blame if you didn't know what you were buying beforehand. There was a free demo, pre-release video AARs, and a forum. Not to mention a very approachable community who have been playing two other games plus add ons based on the same engine that have been around for years.

The idea that BF should have exhaustively listed all the things that weren't featured in the game is frankly bizarre.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Oh yeah, I forgot about the demo. I mean, that is what demos are for, right? To kick the tires before you buy?

[Karabekian]

@Karabekain..CMBN isn't broken..are you what people call a Troll?

Not that I know. But it is broken, compared to CMFI. I do not find it very nice to remove, or leave out, features you had in all your previous games (cover arcs!??????) that should have been obvious to the game makers (if they play CM) as well as they are to the customer. Then you make this game, CMBN, leave out some essential stuff. Then you make a module, that you advertise with new German units, and release them unfinished! (Not fixed by today either...). Then you make a new game, add the simple features that should not have been there in the first place, and ask me to pay $10 for it? Sure its a small amount of money, but I somehow had this picture that BF, advertised as a small company, would somehow be customer orientated, while its just another game company, out for the $ no matter the cost. This view of mine is strengthened by reading this forum, where differing opinions suffer a Blitzkrieg, to say the least.

Its not that I ask for a miracle, but they knew the arcs (for example) were a fundamental part of the game to begin with. Also fundamental to make $ later on.. I would not feel very proud of releasing products like CMSF. While it was one mistake, why make another and then another?

Next time I see a beta screenshot by BF, I will know that probably what I will get in the finished product as well, by your logic. Well that is nice.

Not that I do not like their games, but there is no reason for them to degenerate their product further. And of course, I understand that BF is for different customers, not gamers per se. Why I perhaps can not appreciate their job enough.

[Rocky Balboa]

Next time I see a beta screenshot by BF, I will know that probably what I will get in the finished product as well, by your logic. Well that is nice.

BF is a small company and can not afford to endlessly keep adding features that you consider necessary. If they did then they would never sell anything and consequently would not be a profitable business and being a profitable business is a good thing for war-gamers that like what they produce.

Now, If you don't like their games and dont want to buy what BF is selling then that is your choice but many have bought it and consider it to be a very good product even without certain features included.

If you plan on waiting until they put out a version that has all the features you want then you will have a very long wait because I doubt that will ever happen. Remember BF is a small company and must keep producing products that sell. As the developer/producer they also have to determine if what they are selling has value that people will pay for. They are running a business and every manufacturer/producer makes these decisions every day. IMO and others, BF has done well in this regard, your OP obviously is different and thats ok.

I do however have one thing for you to think on:

The next time you buy a new car, trying going back to the dealer when the newer models arrive and convince them that they should give you the new models features for free.

[SlowMotion]

I would not feel very proud of releasing products like CMSF. While it was one mistake, why make another and then another?

CMSF was the first CMx2 game and sure had problems in the beginning. But compared to it (and some other games from other companies that took time to get working well), CMBN was a high quality release. Not without any bugs, but totally playable since version 1.0.

[JonS]

CMSF was the first CMx2 game and sure had problems in the beginning.

How does CMSF play now?

How much did it cost end users to get it to where it is now (not counting the modules, just the cost of getting the base game to where it is now)?

[SlowMotion]

I haven't played CMSF in my current PC, only CMBN. I'd assume it plays well if you like modern gear and the scenario is good. Quick Battles were probably the part that was not working IMO.

Don't know about the cost, but if I remember correctly it took at least 7 patches before the game felt playable to me. That you could play through a long scenario without feeling that something is seriously broken.

After that it was good - except QBs. And modules were good. Each one brought clearly new units that you had to use differently.

[dieseltaylor]

I see the subtlety of my argument about missing features not being advertised has been noted.

Lets see pre-order opens March

Demo released May

I would say that BF behaved very commercially then with its limited offer on the boxed set two months ahead of the demo download date.

Rocky:

can not afford to endlessly keep adding features that you consider necessary

I love the accusatory you : ) Like it was a great idea for CMX1 and then I am the sole mad bastard who then gets it included in CMX2 WW2. Even BF said other players called for moveable waypoints and cover arcs.

I understand finance very well , and also the importance of management, and reputation.

In the days of CMx1 I was a very loyal supporter of BF and as a small company I can understand the desire to get a better economic model. I question deeply the decision to charge for the conversion to CMBN2 which if I am honest I regard as the product that should have been released as the finished item.

With Matrix Games and BF both promising the launching of tactical WW2 games I think BF decided to jump early and in my opinion the state of the armour module with tanks with laser sights roaming the battlefield at speed and all the attendant rough edges were signalling it was not a finished product.

Now on reflection it may be impossible, due to the US legal system, for BF to admit that the product was not fully developed when they launched it. However they have now had over a year of purchasers doing the product testing for bugs, and they also have had the time to put in the arc and the waypoints which apparently are desired by players.

I bought the metalbox [oops plastic] early because I like to support BF, or used to. Them charging me for what should have been in the game from the start hurts. I do hope they work out that sometimes goodwill is a better method of keeping customers.

I would very likely have considered buying CMFI if I were given the patch/upgrade to CMBN but making me pay for what I consider is BF putting right what should have been in the proper release [not a marketing driven release] makes me less likely to buy any BF products.

[dieseltaylor]

It struck me that the answer may be that people like me should get the upgrade for free and those that consider it a trivial amount can pay up. And if you think I am being a tightwad I would point out that I have paid money to CMMODS, Scenario Depot , and GreenAsJade. I also suggested that perhaps BF should give people like GAJ a copy free given what they do for the community.

Do bugfinders get rewards? Like a commercial incentive!

P.S. And I have a monthly payment to Wikipedia for the greater good.

[JonS]

I see the subtlety of my argument about missing features not being advertised has been noted.

Lets see pre-order opens March

Demo released May

I would say that BF behaved very commercially then with its limited offer on the boxed set two months ahead of the demo download date.

And the subtlety of the CM:SF and CM:A demos being available 1-2 years before the CM:BN announcement?

And the subtlety of the manual being available?

And the subtlety of the forums?

Why, what a sneaky bunch BFC are - imagine deliberately leaking all that information so that customers could make informed decisions. How could they!

I love the accusatory you : ) Like it was a great idea for CMX1 and then I am the sole mad bastard

Rocky, you, me, and every one else are all playing the same game. Rocky seems to be playing the game and enjoying it. I'm definately playing and enjoying the game. You ... well, you seem to be chewing broken glass while rubbing lemon juice into your eyes and snorting wasabi. I have no idea why.

In the days of CMx1 I was a very loyal supporter of BF and as a small company I can understand the desire to get a better economic model. I question deeply the decision to charge for the conversion to CMBN2 which if I am honest I regard as the product that should have been released as the finished item.

So, fine. Do that. Don't buy CMBN until the v2 upgrade is available, and then buy the whole thing as a bundle. You'll save money too, compared to buying CMBN then buying the upgrade seperately, even taking inflation into account.

As for me, well, I'll have been playing and enjoying CMBN for nearly two years buy then. That's well worth $5-10 to me. But you go right ahead and save yourself the money.

Now on reflection it may be impossible, due to the US legal system, for BF to admit that the product was not fully developed when they launched it.

rofl.

I do hope they work out that sometimes goodwill is a better method of keeping customers.

I've heard that staying in business is an even better way of retaining customers. But what would I know - I blew a whole $5 so I can play a game I enjoy for an extra 2 years.

I would very likely have considered buying CMFI if I were given the patch/upgrade to CMBN but making me pay for what I consider is BF putting right what should have been in the proper release [not a marketing driven release] makes me less likely to buy any BF products.

people like me should get the upgrade for free

rofl.

"I bought this thing, and I'm special, so you should give me an upgrade to some other thing for free. Give it to me! Now!"

[JonS]

Do bugfinders get rewards?

As it happens; yes they do, as you well know. The rewards are not monetary, but none the less real.