Is LOS mortar fire too deadly? Discuss...

[WriterJWA]

I have a very recent anecdotes of this ... but I'd like to hear cases of this from others. Who here has seen mortars fire inside their minimum effective range, namely when the crew is firing at a target in their line of sight? Or seen mortars be able to turn and put rounds down the tube without the requisite adjustments (which would be required any time the bipods are moved) and then fire direct?

.... I have a sneaking suspicion mortars firing in direct fire mode (firing with the tube in direct LOS to the target) is ENTIRELY too fast.

[John Kettler]

WriterJWA,

Depends. Whose mortars are we talking? The British 2" could be direct fired at a target. By"direct," I mean with the weapon lodged against a tree, big rock, building wall or similar and fired in a flattish trajectory. On the other end of the spectrum, at least one 81mm mortar has been manhandled into a near vertical position so steep it was off its bipod altogether. That was Roger Donlon in this action. Where it says "directed the fire of the 81mm mortar," it does NOT mean he was calling fire, but aiming it personally. This is not clear in the citation, but was stated explicitly in the READER'S DIGEST account of his incredible MOH winning fight.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Donlon

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

WriterJWA,

Here's how it's done for real. This, though, is NOT firing inside Rmin, which is precisely what Roger Donlon did.

https://rdl.train.army.mil/catalog/view/100.ATSC/C35B5A31-AC52-4FDC-80B8-11CAE1427652-1274311157728/3-22.90/chap8.htm

Here, we have a version of the 60mm mortar using a direct lay method I've never heard of.

http://forums.gamesquad.com/showthread.php?63050-Direct-fire-from-a-U-S-mortar

60mm mortar M2 direct lay in a vid which'll probably freak you out. Why? Let's just say my childhood was nowhere nearly this fun.

60mm mortar direct lay. According to the uploader, this is a new crew, which has never worked together. Consequently, this process is much slower than in reality.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

WriterJWA,

Here's something you've probably never seen. Note that it has a trigger, just like the British 2" mortar.

http://www.rt66.com/~korteng/smallarms/60mm19.htm

Regards,

John Kettler

[WriterJWA]

In a game last night, I had a pair of German 81mm mortars direct fire on a rifle platoon at ~65 meters and kill all but four men in two turns, with most of it happening in the first turn (I couldn't get them out because they had broken and went to ground).

The platoon was on high slope behind a stone wall looking down on the German mortars. They had come under no small arms fire when the mortars began falling. The platoon was just beginning to open up.

I have personally hand-fired the M224 60mm mortar and it can be brought into about 70 meters effectively. The rate of fire is slower than when fired conventionally because it has to be manually triggered. Naturally the German 81mm can't be hand fired, so the ROF will be higher. I guess I have three issues with the event:

1. The German crews seemed to be able to adjust their tubes and puts an FFE on target a little TOO quick, especially considering the range of the small arms fire aimed at them. Friction seemed to have no impact.

2. The American platoon was waaay too slow in their rifle fire. There were no other targets but the mortar crew. That should have been their focus.

3. The morale system was a little too fickle toward the American platoon. Once the first round fell, American rifle fire dropped to zero the Germans were able to fire with impunity. Also, not one man got up and ran. Basically, it was like once the first mortar round hit, the game was over for that platoon... and that felt a little out of the box.

Overall.... I keep running into situations where the tighter the range between units, the more realism is stretched. Another such example is the AT fight from a few days ago.

[Baneman]

I've had it go the other way, with a German squad direct firing on an American 60mm mortar team at about 100m.

What got me was that the mortar crew were completely unfazed by the bullets whipping by ( naturally the squad chose that moment to be terrible shots and couldn't hit a single crewmember ) and calmly laid the mortar on the squad position and obliterated it.

Maybe they would have taken longer or stopped firing the mortar if someone had been hit, but their ability to ignore incoming fire while laying onto a new target at great speed was a little suspect.

If no one is shooting at them though, there seems nothing wrong with their accuracy.

[cool breeze]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdbMpLHE8ww&playnext=1&list=PL714530457A2B9713&feature=results_video

I know its been up but had to post it again.

[Boche]

I have to agree, this is somehting that has to be adresed.

Ive had German 81mm mortars get range first volleys while under heavy fire. I wouldnt mind it if they manage to actually range it but they guess the distance slightly too quickly . And once they do its bye bye to the squad or team in question.

[John Kettler]

WriterJWA,

65 meters? Rather redefines Danger Close, doesn't it? Am guessing this would be a Charge 0 situation. What is the estimated TOF?

If firing by direct lay, I think that mortar crew would be in serious danger of blasting itself while mortaring the foe. The PDF shows the lethal radius of 60 and 81mm mortar fire to be thirty meters, not much margin. Donlon was fighting from a weapon pit, a much better place to be when throwing 81s practically straight up! This source, which has some fascinating mortar lore, lists the 81mm radius as 30 yards, which tracks well with the more modern PDF.

http://www.ww2gyrene.org/weapons_81mm_mortar.htm

This source lists the 60mm mortar bomb's burst radius at ~17 yards, which suggests the newer projectiles likely have more energetic explosive, since we're talking near a factor of two difference in lethal radius between an 81 and a 60 in World War II.

Baneman,

What was the quality of the American mortar team? Fatigue state? Morale? How well officered? In command or not? Terrain type?

I'd be extremely hesitant to draw any conclusions from a sample size of one, which is what you seem to have. The whole point of training is to have soldiers continue to function, no matter what's going on. For mortar men, service of the piece is what it's all about, and that's exactly what the crew did.

Regards,

John Kettler

[LongLeftFlank]

I've also been worrying over mortar efficiency last night in my Makin scenario. I want the Japanese (modded Brits) to have on map indirect fire assets that the US player must neutralize either by destroying the guns or the OPs, but those 81mm mortars are just too dang lethal once they find the range -- high ROF, rapid adjustments, high trajectory so they can fire out of tree cover. The little 2" can't fire indirect of course.

At the opposite end of the flexibility scale are the 75mm German infantry guns; they take a lot of time to "rotate", are incredibly persnickety about Line of Fire, especially when deployed in gunpits surrounded by trees, and to boot half their rounds simply burst in those trees!

EDIT: For clarification, this is NOT a gripe. I am once again astounded at how faithfully the game represents real life challenges; in this case, siting light guns (not howitzers) when your defence is of necessity less than 300m deep! (i.e. the width of the island). Oh, and your defensive scheme generally assumed an enemy landing on the south shore, not the north.

I for one like the 81mm mortars, which together with the MG42s were the cornerstone of German defenses, to be swift, silent and deadly! As I've opined ad nauseam, the extreme lethality of mortars and other HE chuckers in game is a function of the target infantry not taking cover (and staying down) promptly enough, not of some overmodeling in these weapons. Although I wouldn't say no to some "muffling" of rounds that impact soft ground or water.

[John Kettler]

LongLeftFlank,

Are you trying to simulate this weapon, the Type 92 Battalion Gun? It provides both direct fire and indirect fire capabilities.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_92_Battalion_Gun

If you're using the British as the Japanese, I don't see any comparable weapon to the Type 92, with the possible exception of the 3" Mortar for indirect fires. Or am I missing something?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Baneman]

Further to this discussion, particularly regarding mortar crews not ducking/cowering from incoming fire.

A small QB I'm playing in CMFI - my German 81mm mortar is firing across the map. But they've been spotted. They're well into their high RoF phase ( often I find the 1st turn of DF they only get off 1-2 rounds ) - firing a round roughly every 5 seconds or so - real quick. Edit : they're Area Firing, not a called arty strike.

American mortar fire lands amongst them, killing 2 and wounding 1 (yellow) of the 4 crew.

Does this slow them down ? Hell no, their RoF doesn't slacken or slow even slightly. They get off another 4-5 rounds at the same speed. It's only when another mortar round kills a 3rd crewman does the last panic and quit the job.

It's as though if they have a fire mission, all morale effects are ignored until catastrophic levels are reached.

[Erwin]

I just had a couple mortar crews who were under fire from several attacking tanks calmly spot and fire lethally at inf I was trying to bring up from something like 400 meters away. Those crews sure don't cower easily. (But, after all they were US crews RIP lol.)

[Fernando]

Further to this discussion, particularly regarding mortar crews not ducking/cowering from incoming fire.

A small QB I'm playing in CMFI - my German 81mm mortar is firing across the map. But they've been spotted. They're well into their high RoF phase ( often I find the 1st turn of DF they only get off 1-2 rounds ) - firing a round roughly every 5 seconds or so - real quick. Edit : they're Area Firing, not a called arty strike.

American mortar fire lands amongst them, killing 2 and wounding 1 (yellow) of the 4 crew.

Does this slow them down ? Hell no, their RoF doesn't slacken or slow even slightly. They get off another 4-5 rounds at the same speed. It's only when another mortar round kills a 3rd crewman does the last panic and quit the job.

It's as though if they have a fire mission, all morale effects are ignored until catastrophic levels are reached.

I have read that soldiers beign part of crew (mortar, AT gun, MG etc.) are usually more "courageous" or are able to withstand punishement than infantrymen. The reason is that they are usually focused in serving a weapon. Having a clear task to do helps a lot in order to keep firm under fire.

I remember that during O'Connor's offensive, in 1940, while Italian infantry were surrendering by thousands, some Italian AT crews had to be flattened along their guns by the British tanks because they refused to flee and fired their guns until the last second. Those Italian gunners had a clear task to do.

[LongLeftFlank]

SLA Marshall, although many of his "findings" were subsequently found to be tainted by massive confirmation bias (his), did have a valid point when he noted that much of the disproportionate effectiveness of crew served weapons had to do with them being, well, crew served. If you aren't doing your job, your mates who are right there can see that, and your commander knows you aren't too, since he can't hear your distinctive and important weapon shooting. Unlike an individual rifleman. The only thing that keeps most men on a battlefield once the SHTF is the overriding desire not to let their immediate team down; King and Country or Fuhrer und Vaterland generally has f***-all to do with it.

More technically complex weapons being put in the care of better trained men and/or veterans also plays a role.

P.S. JK, let's take detailed discussion of Japanese ordnance over to a more relevant thread. Short answer: no.

[MikeyD]

The topic of mortar direct fire lethality expands greatly with the little Brixia mortar thrown in the mix. Really, the thing seems more like a rudimentary auto grenade launcher than a traditional tube mortar. Contemporary allied intel heaped scorn on it for its weight, cost and complexity. Twenty five years later they were fielding some mighty heavy/complex/costly auto grenade launchers themselves.

[womble]

It's as though if they have a fire mission, all morale effects are ignored until catastrophic levels are reached.

Interesting. Something similar seems to happen with ATGs.

I've seen (from both sides) ATG crews stick to their guns through serial minutes of suppression from DF HE and MG fire. Even though they're unable to get their heads up for long enough to operate the weapon, they don't run until they take a KIA/WIA, even though their ammo bearer team (under much less withering fire) vacates the area pronto, before having taken any casualties.

It's not inconceivable that ATG crews get a bonus for staying put because the consequences of them abandoning their gun are serious and permanent. Perhaps that has snuck through into other crew served weapons too.

[LukeFF]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdbMpLHE8ww&playnext=1&list=PL714530457A2B9713&feature=results_video

I know its been up but had to post it again.

:D

Obviously no NCOs were around when that was filmed.

[WriterJWA]

Interesting. Something similar seems to happen with ATGs.

I've seen (from both sides) ATG crews stick to their guns through serial minutes of suppression from DF HE and MG fire. Even though they're unable to get their heads up for long enough to operate the weapon, they don't run until they take a KIA/WIA, even though their ammo bearer team (under much less withering fire) vacates the area pronto, before having taken any casualties.

It's not inconceivable that ATG crews get a bonus for staying put because the consequences of them abandoning their gun are serious and permanent. Perhaps that has snuck through into other crew served weapons too.

I had something similar happen to me recently. I had a German 50mm gun under fire with a .50 cal mounted on a TMC at less than 100 meters. While under fire, the ATG unlimbered, turned, and fired at a 75mm TMC nearby and scored two hits. THAT seemed excessive....