Paper Tiger Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I don't want to take BigDork's AAR thread off course so I'll start a new thread here to discuss this. I went back and re-watched the turn in question. My Sherman doesn't spot the Panzer until after it starts reversing. I've watched that video a couple of times and I saw that the Sherman was reversing, i.e. moving, when it spotted the stationary PzIV. At 19 seconds, the Regular experience Gunner (no leadership modifier) started rotating the turret of a moving tank and got a shot off within 7 seconds, a shot that hit first time no less. And then, it appears to have spotted a second stationary PzIV, fired off a single shot, hit, and killed it. This seems very modern era to me.:confused: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I think it is officially documented now that CMx2 vehicles don't get realistic punishment to spotting and hitting from moving. This was discussed a while back. The fast turret turn turns into a real advantage in your situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 if its officially known then id feel obligated to hope at this point that a penalty of different levels of some sort could be applied on a case by case basis with tanks in respect to their vision slit designs, cupola or not, etc. with the upgrades beginning with CM FI 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paper Tiger Posted July 30, 2012 Author Share Posted July 30, 2012 It's very hard to tell from that video if the Sherman is unbuttoned. I suspect it is and that the PzIV is similarly unbuttoned. The TC didn't appear to spot the PzIV. The Gunner did while the unbuttoned PzIV commander didn't spot a tank move into his frontal arc. If the Sherman's TC DID spot the tank, he communicated the information to his gunner very rapidly indeed. The PzIV icon appears at the same instant as the Gunner starts rotating. These are extremely fast reactions for a NORMAL experience crew. I suspect that the Sherman gunner's spotting value is too high if he's able to spot faster than an unbuttoned TC. The firing and hitting while on the move is secondary here but it makes a bad situation feel worse because of the destruction of the enemy asset. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonS Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I suspect that the Sherman gunner's spotting value is too high if he's able to spot faster than an unbuttoned TC. Bear in mind that the value you're talking about is a chance to spot. Regardless of how good one guy's is compared to another, there is - by definition - a chance that the nearly-blind guy will spot something before his more well endowed mate does. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Bear in mind that the value you're talking about is a chance to spot. Regardless of how good one guy's is compared to another, there is - by definition - a chance that the nearly-blind guy will spot something before his more well endowed mate does. From my experiments with spotting under V1.01 it was highly variable with differences of minutes in spotting time. And in the worst case in fire lanes a Sherman refused to notice an enemy tank at 1800 metres who bounced three shots off the glacis. I am not bothering to test anymore as V2 will presumably alter numerous items discovered by players in the last 13 months since CMBN was launched. Incidentally does anyone know if the superior German binoculars are modelled in game? Certainly Allied troops rated them very much higher than the normal issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Incidentally does anyone know if the superior German binoculars are modelled in game? Certainly Allied troops rated them very much higher than the normal issue. I have this notion that the main advantage of the German binoculars (aside from being exotic by being foreign made) was that they were smaller and lighter. I don't know if they actually had much better optical performance when you were looking through them. Has anyone here ever actually compared them to US and UK issued binocs? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Somewhere I have read the comment of a US tanker about the much better resolution of the German optics and how he was able to pick up details that could not be seen with the US binos. He gave a specific instance of an ATG AFAIR. Useful stuff if not comparative data. http://home.europa.com/~telscope/milusarm.txt 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDork Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Dunno how much this helps the conversation but here is a screenshot showing the Sherman during the pause. You can see it is unbuttoned and of regular experience. And here's a screenshot showing how much I failed at actually attaining a hull down position. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Thansk for the pics. What were the ranges involved being an interesting point ? And how many shots to nail the second? When I was taking it seriously I actually was testing to see if looking into the sun had any effect .... not that I take realism claims seriously you understand! : ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigDork Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 With the first tank, it was 419m away when my Sherman took the shot. The second Panzer was also taken out in one shot. The distance on that one was 498m. It's raining in the French countryside so there was no sun to contend with. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 I will add my two cents to this issue once again. I do not think it has to do with the sherman, i think it has to do with the game spotting mechanics. I have for a long while now been playing my armor by intentionally being the side that finds the enemy armor in position, then moving mine up into position to create line of sight and then a attack. Why, because I kept losing position tanks to just this type of result. some enemy armor moving into position would spot my unit, fire and get first hit before My unit saw anything. I find if I spot the enemy with infantry and then move my armor into place I almost gareentee I will spot and shoot first. Now testing this might prove a issue. But in general, for the time frame and battle sim that should be potrayed. The stationary armor in the game should have a huge spotting advantage over moving armor and it does not. Personnally, I think moving armor should just have their spotting ability greatly reduced to all forms of targets and I think it would improve the game to a much more realistic general results as to how combat should play out. Until then, I will stay with my method. Just did it in a present game I am playing. Enemy had Shermans overwatching fields to my approach from behind bocages in a flanking position. I moved my panthers up, one right in a open field behind a little rise. Both locations I did this, spotted and fired first. The one location, my panther must have fired four shots before getting the deadly hit. But at no point did it appear that the enemy sherman spotted my unit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaksteri Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Yeah, the Shermans are currently OP bullcrap, I hope they release a patch that fixes it soon. Skipping offtopic here; when are they going to add all times of the year to the game? I want some winter fighting goodness for a change. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Yeah, the Shermans are currently OP bullcrap, I hope they release a patch that fixes it soon. Skipping offtopic here; when are they going to add all times of the year to the game? I want some winter fighting goodness for a change. Likely never. CMBN will likely only cover until October/November. The Bulge family will get you your Winter ice capades. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaksteri Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Likely never. CMBN will likely only cover until October/November. The Bulge family will get you your Winter ice capades. Is the team that small or is the budged that limited? Give me some sources man before trying to get me disappointed on this game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baneman Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 It's not just a case of winter terrain, winter means the date has moved on, so you have new/different units, TO&E's and so forth. With that amount of work required, it makes sense to put it in a different module/basegame. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Is the team that small or is the budged that limited? Give me some sources man before trying to get me disappointed on this game. Neither. You should read the announcements on the family concept for the game, they are likely clearer than me repeating them. A game constitutes a specific period (terrain, available vehicles and ToEs being the restrictive factors) The CMBN family was always intended to cover up to and include Market Garden with it's additional modules. Hopefully that means it would run into November. The Bulge family and it's modules would cover Dec. and into 1945. One of the items specifically targeted for the Bulge family is snow and associated terrain conditions. The source is BF in a number of announcements on the Family release schedule. (another example is the first Eastern Front game for Bagration. It will likely not have snow conditions as well.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 It's very hard to tell from that video if the Sherman is unbuttoned. I suspect it is and that the PzIV is similarly unbuttoned. The TC didn't appear to spot the PzIV. The Gunner did while the unbuttoned PzIV commander didn't spot a tank move into his frontal arc. If the Sherman's TC DID spot the tank, he communicated the information to his gunner very rapidly indeed. The PzIV icon appears at the same instant as the Gunner starts rotating. These are extremely fast reactions for a NORMAL experience crew. I suspect that the Sherman gunner's spotting value is too high if he's able to spot faster than an unbuttoned TC. The firing and hitting while on the move is secondary here but it makes a bad situation feel worse because of the destruction of the enemy asset. I'm of the opposite opinion at least until we have some confirmation as to whether the MKIV was buttoned or unbuttoned and the condition and experience of the crew. I'm more concerned at this point that the Sherman was able to spot, fire and score a hit so quickly while on the move. Of course the fates of war are fickle and more formal testing would need to be done to determine if there is an actual problem with the simulations mechanics. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarquelne Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Why, because I kept losing position tanks to just this type of result. some enemy armor moving into position would spot my unit, fire and get first hit before My unit saw anything. Cover and the quality of the LOS seem significantly more important than movement. Or at least more important than I expected. And I don't know exactly how important movement should be. In everyday life I don't spend what I'd consider a lot of time trying to spot distant tanks moving among trees. Maybe someone's tested the ease of spotting moving tanks in the open vs. situations with foliage, low-light, etc.? But I am fairly often startled by the spotting prowess of tanks in the game. Especially vs. ATGs and AT-teams. Reaction speed, too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee_Vincent Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Is the team that small or is the budged that limited? Give me some sources man before trying to get me disappointed on this game. I think their productivity is quite extraordinary given the size of the team. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaksteri Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Are they atleast going to release FREE patches along with the module for the base game so that we don't have to pay 60$ for a bloody update? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Are they atleast going to release FREE patches along with the module for the base game so that we don't have to pay 60$ for a bloody update? The announcement is posted right on the main page. Read that and if it still isn't clear ask them. As far as I know no one has ever suggested $60 for an update or patch. Patch is free, update is $5 bundled, $10 stand alone. Modules are full price (generally $35 I think). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Wenman Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Jesus christ the commonwealth and battle for the bulge should have been in the base game from the beginning, I'd be interested to hear why you think this P 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaksteri Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 Ah, good then. I'd be interested to hear why you think this P They had Canadian forces along with Americans already in the Beyond Overlord along with access to every month of the year. Without any fancy DLC's. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted July 30, 2012 Share Posted July 30, 2012 without going into a text book explanation. I do recall that the human mind is programmed to hunt or determine danger by certain instincts. Sight being the largest one used for this. It relies on sight in different ways to determine this, like shape, color and movement and some others. But movement is by far the easiest and most instinctive thing for the human eye to be drawn to. Your eye is always drawn to movement. In combat, movement is by far the best way to get yourselve spotted. The game just does not have it right at the moment. You can throw all the other factors out. A tank moving has nothing going for it as to staying hidden other than if the line of sight is totally abstructed and its color if by chance it blends in with the backround. Where as a tank that was stopped, behind a bocage. has no movement, Until it rotates it barrel. Has no outline since the vegetation should be breaking it up and to a large extent there should be no color problen since it is behind concealment making it much easier for the color to just appear as backround tones. So in just the example I gave in my last post. There is no way a panther moving up on a enemy unit in a open field should be able to get the jump on the sherman behind the bocage facing and watching said field. It is against nature. At the moment in the game spotting goes to the side that gets lucky. And what I am saying is. If you can spot the enemy first with another unit, like infantry, then the advantage seems to go your way. I find time and time again. if I know where a enemy unit is and I pull my armor up into place to also have a line of sight, I normally get the spot and shot off first. The program is not correct to the real world, my opinion, but again, I think the best fix would be to correct what moving units can spot and it would resolve plenty of the problems. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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