Precision fire for the foe; area fire for us--why, BFC?

[John Kettler]

I don't get it. The tank, AC or Marder is there. Big as day. Yet when I target it, it vanishes, turning my Target Heavy command into Area Fire, that is, if it hasn't already vanished, forcing me to play Battlefield Concentration™ in an effort to hit it. Does my gunner suddenly go blind or what?

Alternatively, continuation fire goes into the dust cloud, maybe hitting and maybe not (sure looks spectacular), yet a beaten up Panther with damaged optics (determined after the battle) fires OUT of the dust cloud and flames one of my partially defiladed, in the trees, TDs or Shermans with one shot. We keep being told both sides (am playing vs. the AI) play under the exact same handicaps, but my casualty list does NOT seem to reflect this at all. It seems to me that the AI gets precision fire, while I mostly get area fire. This is frustrating the daylights out of me.

BFC, please explain why I'm seeing what I'm seeing, for it LOOKS LIKE the AI has an advantage vs. me and a murderous one at that. And this is without discussing its unholy ability to find LOS when I generally can't see much of anything, despite practically standing on my head to get LOS to anything of military value. How I miss being actually able to aim AT the target and shoot AT it, not have my aimpoint redirected to someplace NEAR the target. Please, please, BFC, make it so the Cover Arc actually shows LOS. This business of first looking into the matter with Target, then trying to recreate that with the Cover Arc is for the birds! Oh, and please add me to the list of those crying out in desperation for a Cover Armor Arc!

Regards,

John Kettler

[JonS]

It could just be that the AI is simply a better player than you are. No cheating, it's just better.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It sounds like you may be struggling with relative spotting. That affects the AI the same as it does you. Maybe you should turn the difficulty down to Basic Training where there is no relative spotting. And I would suggest reading the manual. You are making a lot of statements that are factually incorrect.

[John Kettler]

Vanir Ausf B,

I went to Veteran because someone said that was why the artillery was just creaming me. How wonderfully ironic! That advice DID make the indirect fire problem a little easier, in that every movement wasn't instantly shelled or mortared, relatively speaking.

I know what relative spotting is, as opposed to Borg spotting. Got that. I've spent some time with the eye test manual (terrible contrast ratio) and need to spend more, but I fail to see how my reports of my experiences in the Demo "are factually incorrect." I didn't say things WERE a certain way; I said, in essence, "These are things I observed, they affected me this way, and it SEEMS that this is going on." So, I welcome your comments on what's really going on, how the enemy's able to work seeming miracles, and other matters of interest.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

Units can fire out of smoke/dust/obscurants from further in than units outside can target them. So (using illustrative numbers only), if the vehicle has 5m of dust cloud between it and the shooter, and can fire out from 6m in, whereas the shooter can only shoot in 4m, there will be a differential in the lines of sight. This works for both parties, but will, obviously, provide an advantage to one side in any given instance of it applying.

And you are struggling with relative spotting. Just because a unit can see the target doesn't mean its gun can. Spotting is relative amongst the crew of the vehicle too, with each having its own LOS.

This business of first looking into the matter with Target, then trying to recreate that with the Cover Arc...

Sorry, you lost me there. What are you trying to recreate with a Cover Arc?

It's not going to be a simple thing to have any blanket "show LOS" tool, since any entity other than a single trooper or sole crew member will have several potential LOS/LOF. How would you have that displayed? Showing the sum of the LOSes would confuse as it does now. Showing the Commander's LOS would leave out targets.

And for the umpteenth time:

...in the trees...

Doesn't necessarily mean a thing when considering spotting. If it's "Light Woods" you need several APs depth of it to obscure a tank-sized object.

It's also worth noting that "damaged optics" isn't a big black dropcloth over the vehicle, but a degradation in accuracy, especially at long range. At most Normandy engagement ranges, the high velocity 75 on a Panther may as well be a laser when firing at a stationary object. It's going to hit, even if there's no sight assistance.

[Fizou]

John,

Have you tried playing as the germans in that perticular scenario? I found it easier to start playing with them as the panther for example is much more forgiving when you make mistakes compared to the sherman.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I know what relative spotting is, as opposed to Borg spotting. Got that. I've spent some time with the eye test manual (terrible contrast ratio) and need to spend more, but I fail to see how my reports of my experiences in the Demo "are factually incorrect." I didn't say things WERE a certain way; I said, in essence, "These are things I observed, they affected me this way, and it SEEMS that this is going on." So, I welcome your comments on what's really going on, how the enemy's able to work seeming miracles, and other matters of interest.

I've tried to give you some general tips, but absent screenshots it's often hard to understand what you are describing. For example:

I don't get it. The tank, AC or Marder is there. Big as day. Yet when I target it, it vanishes, turning my Target Heavy command into Area Fire, that is, if it hasn't already vanished, forcing me to play Battlefield Concentration™ in an effort to hit it. Does my gunner suddenly go blind or what?

From this description is seems that you are attempting to target a visible enemy unit, but when you click on it with the target line it goes *poof*. This never happens in the game that I have seen. Your description in the other thread of your Shermans "seeming" to have a rate of fire of 1 round per minute is another example. Without screenshots or a better description I have no idea what you're talking about since my Shermans have no such restriction. Same with the AI "working miracles". I never played the demo so maybe it is fiendishly difficult, but I have played maybe 10-12 scenarios off the base game against the AI at warrior difficulty and won all of them on the first attempt. No AI miracles in my game. Well, the Germans in Bois de Baugin did "seem" to NEVER RUN OUT OF ARTILLERY OMG WOULD YOU PLEASE MAKE IT STOP ALREADY!! :eek:

Ok, so maybe one minor miracle. But I cannot comprehend how someone could be losing to the AI multiple times in a row on the same scenario.

There are only really 3 things about CMBN that are hard to learn:

1) The UI with its poorly documented/undocumented features.

2) The opaque C2 system, particularly when calling indirect fire from on-board assets.

3) Occasional LOS oddities, such as not being able to target the 2nd floor of a building if you can't see the 1st floor, unless you spot an enemy unit in the 2nd floor which you then can target as long as it remains in LOS ect....

Once you wrap your head around those concepts, which should not take more than a year or two of intense study at most, it's the same tactics you've been using since CMBO. With few exceptions, such as not being allowed to fire infantry AT rockets from buildings :mad::mad::mad: , the tactics that worked well in CMx1 will more-or-less work well in CMBN. Basic fire and maneuver, or in JasonC's case fire and then fire some more.

[Baneman]

Note also that, infantry-wise, if you're checking LoS from a unit that's all HIDEing or Cowering, lying flat, the target tool will show NO LoS, even though a kneeling soldier would have LoS from that position.

So be careful when checking LoS from infantry that the unit you're using is upright

[c3k]

John,

Select the enemy Marder. Now, with that Marder still selected, zoom out and look at your units. At least one of your US units will be highlighted. That unit(s) is/are the one(s) which have LOS to the Marder.

If you're trying to TARGET the Marder with a US unit which is not highlighted in the above step, it means that the US unit does not see the Marder. Therefore, it MUST area target.

I am being very specific by stating it "does not see". There is a possibility it COULD. It just may not be facing the right way, they may be prone rather than kneeling, etc.

A screenshot (Fraps is often used), would clear up this situation rather quickly.

Ken

[dieseltaylor]

Is the demo patched to V1.10?

[John Kettler]

SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT! SPOILER ALERT!

Vanir Ausf B,

The "goes poof" is exactly what happens. I can see AFVs, for example, but Target makes them vanish, the AC can't be shot at unless I remember well enough where it was in order to take it under area fire, hoping to hit it. Had a bridge under direct fire last night, said bridge bearing a Panther. I had no less than three AFVs firing, one an M4A3 with boatloads of HE if nothing else. I shot at the Panther, eventually forcing the cannon out of action, but the thing was still wreaking havoc with its coax and occupying the objective. The initial firing was impressive, but then dropped to a trickle in fairly short order. No idea idea why. Was trying to drown the kitty, with a nasty fire mission minutes out to finish the job. The other kitty was dead, shot through the flank; three Marders were dead, decorating the ridge, and one survived to torment me. The Marders exhibited the exact same there and not thereness, too, despite being in plain sight on a high ridge. 13:00 to go--and the game crashed! Reopen button failed to do the job. That battle disappeared into the ether, never to be seen again. Arrgh!!! I think that battle was winnable, for I'd done so much better with my armor this time I had the forces to go in and seize the objectives before the clock ran out.

I'm a pretty good tactical wargamer, and have performed well in CMx1 tournaments, yet I find defending in Closing The Gap to be very demanding. My best so far as been Allied Tactical Victory, but I recently got clobbered in a German Major Victory. I'm playing at Veteran level. Enemy fire support generally takes out one or both mortars early, and this time, obliterated my carefully sited ATG and everything around it. Try it yourself and let me know what you think. My new tactics seem to be working way better than the old ones did, so I AM improving.

womble,

Nice explanation! As for the cover arc, I simply want it to show where I can't see and where I can with the cannon, so I can position the arc properly. As it is, the thing lets me have cover arcs which go diagonally through multiple buildings. Clearly, that's not going to work.

dieseltaylor,

It is. I checked.

c3k,

Capital idea on grokking the LOS mystery. Been ages since I last took a screenshot in a CM game.

Baneman,

Good point--and eminently logical, walls not being transparent!

Regards,

John Kettler

[CM1fan]

John,

Select the enemy Marder. Now, with that Marder still selected, zoom out and look at your units. At least one of your US units will be highlighted. That unit(s) is/are the one(s) which have LOS to the Marder.

Ken

You make it sound so easy. Unfortunately, I find there are units, friendly and enemy, I can't select by clicking on the unit's floating icon or on the map location of the unit. I've complained about this in other threads, but nobody has given me an explanation of why this happens or instructions on how to prevent it from happening. I can sometimes select a desired friendly unit by selecting one unit that I can select and then using + (plus) and - (minus) to get to the unit I want.

I believe I should be able to select any unit on the map when viewing a turn and certainly any friendly unit when giving orders. However, I can't. [i use an iMac. Unit selection may be more reliable on Windows machines.]

[c3k]

You make it sound so easy. Unfortunately, I find there are units, friendly and enemy, I can't select by clicking on the unit's floating icon or on the map location of the unit. I've complained about this in other threads, but nobody has given me an explanation of why this happens or instructions on how to prevent it from happening. I can sometimes select a desired friendly unit by selecting one unit that I can select and then using + (plus) and - (minus) to get to the unit I want.

I believe I should be able to select any unit on the map when viewing a turn and certainly any friendly unit when giving orders. However, I can't. [i use an iMac. Unit selection may be more reliable on Windows machines.]

I'm a non-Mac'er. Er, PC'er. This is probably a Mac issue. Anyone else having a similar situation?

[YankeeDog]

I believe I should be able to select any unit on the map when viewing a turn and certainly any friendly unit when giving orders. However, I can't. [i use an iMac. Unit selection may be more reliable on Windows machines.]

Nope; it's not a Mac problem. Or at least, not a generic Mac problem. Either you're doing something wrong, there's a problem unique to your specific hardware setup, or you've got a "special" version of CM. I play on a 2011 iMac, OSX Lion and have no problems selecting any friendly unit during the orders phase simply by clicking on the unit's icon, or the unit itself. Not sure why you're having problems...

IIRC, there's some sort of setting in the Options menu that has to do with mouse-click accuracy -- have you played with the setting in the Options menu to see whether anything there fixes your issue? Also, make sure to read the Mac Read Me file that comes with the game install -- it contains recommended Options settings for various Mac hardware.

[CM1fan]

We keep being told both sides (am playing vs. the AI) play under the exact same handicaps, but my casualty list does NOT seem to reflect this at all. It seems to me that the AI gets precision fire, while I mostly get area fire.

Regards,

John Kettler

The "Last Defense" scenario is a favorite of mine, because it's a remake of the demo scenario of CMBO that got me to by CM1 many years ago. I played the German side of Last Defense against CM:BN's AI four times, each time trying a different starting arrangement for my forces. From the starting US positions, no US unit could see any of my units. The AI has ALWAYS fired its opening turn barrage on the starting locations of my troops.

The only explanation I can find for the AI's unerring performance is that it knows where I've placed my units. It shouldn't, but it does.

There's a simple test. Pick any scenario allowing variable initial set up outside the view of the enemy. Try different set ups, and observe where the AI bombards your troops. If my experience with "Last Defense" is typical, you'll see the AI make a lot of "lucky" guesses.

[mjkerner]

The "Last Defense" scenario is a favorite of mine, because it's a remake of the demo scenario of CMBO that got me to by CM1 many years ago. I played the German side of Last Defense against CM:BN's AI four times, each time trying a different starting arrangement for my forces. From the starting US positions, no US unit could see any of my units. The AI has ALWAYS fired its opening turn barrage on the starting locations of my troops.

The only explanation I can find for the AI's unerring performance is that it knows where I've placed my units. It shouldn't, but it does.

There's a simple test. Pick any scenario allowing variable initial set up outside the view of the enemy. Try different set ups, and observe where the AI bombards your troops. If my experience with "Last Defense" is typical, you'll see the AI make a lot of "lucky" guesses.

The scenario designer chooses whether or not to set support areas on the map for the AI side, which the AI may or may not select to use for opening barrages. It makes these choices dependent upon how many arty assets it has, how many support areas there are, how large those area are, and maybe some sort of hoodoo/voodoo/mojo/gris-gris. The scenario designers often seem to delineate areas that human players are likely to select...or areas through which they are likely to move in the initial turns. The AI isn't using any super secret tools--well, except maybe a little hoodoo/etc.--just what the designer input into the scenario.

It's covered in the manual.

[womble]

The "goes poof" is exactly what happens. I can see AFVs, for example, but Target makes them vanish...

You're describing something that doesn't happen. Honestly. If you can see the target while the unit you want to shoot with is selected, the target line just says "No LOS" if for some reason (usually trees or bocage or an edge case elevation intersection) you can't actually shoot at it. If initiating targeting is changing the displayed enemy units, there's something wrong with your install.

I'm a pretty good tactical wargamer, and have performed well in CMx1 tournaments, yet I find defending in Closing The Gap to be very demanding.

I'd consider myself as no more than an averabe gamer, and I won Closing the Gap at the first time of asking from each direction, having only played some of the CMSF demo, and "Road to Berlin" and "Busting the Bocage" in the BN demo. It was touch and go on the defense, but that was about my 6th go with the engine and 3rd game in Normandy.

Nice explanation!

It's the way cover/concealment works in every game: if you're behind it you can see out.

As for the cover arc, I simply want it to show where I can't see and where I can with the cannon, so I can position the arc properly. As it is, the thing lets me have cover arcs which go diagonally through multiple buildings. Clearly, that's not going to work.

You seem to be operating under a misapprehension. I don't know what you think cover arcs do, but what they actually do is tell the unit "Do not fire at targets that are outside this arc". Since they're not shooting anywhere else, they point their faces (or their turret) at the middle of the arc. That's it. Sometimes they ignore you, but that's not really relevant to what the order means. Why would having the arc include places they can't fire make it not work?

[womble]

You make it sound so easy. Unfortunately, I find there are units, friendly and enemy, I can't select by clicking on the unit's floating icon or on the map location of the unit.

I sometimes can't click on some units from some camera positions, even when their icon looks like I can click on it. Usually, there's some "building bloat" getting in the way and changing the viewing angle will allow me to click on what I want.

[Fizou]

CM1fan,

I also believe that the resolution on screen might have something to do with this. I think its mentioned in the manual or at the video options in game.

[CM1fan]

Nope; it's not a Mac problem. Or at least, not a generic Mac problem. I play on a 2011 iMac, OSX Lion and have no problems selecting any friendly unit during the orders phase simply by clicking on the unit's icon, or the unit itself.

IIRC, there's some sort of setting in the Options menu that has to do with mouse-click accuracy -- have you played with the setting in the Options menu to see whether anything there fixes your issue? Also, make sure to read the Mac Read Me file that comes with the game install -- it contains recommended Options settings for various Mac hardware.

Thanks, Dog. I did go back to the options settings and fiddled with them. Only a couple (whose names I can't recall) seemed possibly to be related to my selection problem. I changed them to the faster (?) setting and played the next turn in my two email scenarios. Finally, I could select every one of my units by icon clicks during both the review and the command phases of the turn. If this continues to work in following turns, I'll consider my problem well and truly solved.

[sfhand]

You make it sound so easy. Unfortunately, I find there are units, friendly and enemy, I can't select by clicking on the unit's floating icon or on the map location of the unit. I've complained about this in other threads, but nobody has given me an explanation of why this happens or instructions on how to prevent it from happening. I can sometimes select a desired friendly unit by selecting one unit that I can select and then using + (plus) and - (minus) to get to the unit I want.

I believe I should be able to select any unit on the map when viewing a turn and certainly any friendly unit when giving orders. However, I can't. [i use an iMac. Unit selection may be more reliable on Windows machines.]

This is ringing a bell for me... I never had this problem until I updated video drivers and suddenly I couldn't select any units. After a bit of head scratching I went to the CMBN options screen and selected the AMD/ATI switch (sorry, I don't remember exactly what it's called but you will see it none-the-less) and the problem went away... yes, I have an AMD/ATI card

[Pak40]

John,

Please answer a couple of questions for me:

1. Are you playing RT or Wego in the above examples?

2. When exactly does the target vanish? Does it vanish when you select your firing unit, or does it vanish when you select the target command, or does it vanish when you place the target command on the target?

3. Are there any vegetation/smoke/dust between your firing unit and the target? Is it day time or night, rain or fog?

Also, before you complain any more that the AI is unfair, keep in mind that AI does not use area fire, that's one advantage a human player has. Also the AI cannot see the battlefield geography as a whole, nor can it reform tactical plans like humans can.

[John Kettler]

Pak40,

1. Wego in all cases.

2 Usually, the last, and it retargets the target line. So, say, the Panther vanishes and the target line is no longer on the now invisible Panther. Am pretty sure I've seen behavior number two as well, where during playback an AC is seen in town. Yet in my command phase, it's gone, leaving me to guess where I saw it so I can shoot it. Fortunately being parked perpendicularly across the back of my dead HTwas good enough for me to get rid of that pest. Day, whatever the weather is in Closing the Gap. How a kitty maneuvering in plain view of multiple direct fire assets goes poof! is beyond me, let alone a Marder running the ridgeline. I do not believe the other items are an issue, unless the target is currently under fire, in which case there would be obscurants present, but I'm looking a same through 6-8X optics, if memory serves.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Childress]

Why am i getting the impression that CMBN, or the Demo scenario, represents a vast and insidious conspiracy against John Kettler? It's personal!

But entertaining. Keep it up, JK.

[Pak40]

Just so I have this right:

1. In the command phase, you target the Panther

2. In the replay phase at some point the Panther vanishes and the target line resets to an area fire?

I've never seen a direct target order remade into an area fire order. Either your original target order was never placed on the unit or your seeing things. If you've saved the replay I'd love to see it.

As for the Panther disappearing, it happens quite a bit. Units gain then lose LOS sometimes even while both vehicles are still. Usually when I zoom down to the eye level of my unit I discover that there was something obstructing LOS to some degree, almost always vegetation.