Cannot see where I was hit in tank?...

[Gian]

Hi

I did a quick skirmish yesterday and after the battle I was trying to see where I was hit, in a tank that is. I could see no penetration graphic.

Is there supposed to be a mark or something when hit on a tank? Also is there a way to toggle a hit line graphic similar to Theatre of War?

The reason I am curious is that my Tiger was hit and caught flames being hit by Sherman more than a kilometer away. I was curious to see where it hit me.

Thanks,

G

[Mord]

Nope. The only way to see where the hit takes place is to watch a reply over and over and pay close attention. Also having detailed hit text turned on will give you a tad more info but it's not real specific. You can see what systems where damaged by the clicking the little wrench icon but the game doesn't have any form of hit decals or lines showing you where the penetration was.

I hope that we will get some hit decals sooner than later.

Mord.

[Gian]

Thanks for confirming Mord....I have to admit, this is a tad disappointing...

[YankeeDog]

You can, however, turn on hit text, which will give you a text display of where the tank was hit *at the time the round hits* -- "front lower hull penetration", or "wheel hit" for example.

But after the fact, there is no way to get this information. So unless you are playing WEGO and saved the movie game file covering the time when hit occurred, you're SOL, I'm afraid...

[Bradley]

Aren't damage decals planned for a family/module in the WWII series?

[Vanir Ausf B]

They are on the list. They haven't said when.

[womble]

I would guess that your death by Sherman was because your Tiger was tilted in some way that showed its top armour. Of course you'd need the hit text to confirm. Or it could have been a ricochet off the mantlet.

[General Lee Irked]

Meh, I had a Tiger (Destroyed) by a hand grenade. Since then my uber panzer psyche took a major turn towards major episodes of depression and I now resort to heavy drinking to allow me to better cope with my game insecurities.

Want to feel better? PM me and set up a PBEM and soon you will be singing victory songs in whatever language your side is.

And I will end up purchasing more alcohol.

[Amizaur]

The possible angles of a top armor hit are so extreme, that there is no practical possibility of Tiger's top armor being penetrated, unless there is a high and very steep hill which allows other tank to look with at least 25deg look-down angle.

The shooting tank would have to fire from at least -20deg slope also, because from horizontal position it could not drop it's barrel to -25deg either . Then it would have chance penetrating Tiger's 25-40mm top armor.

As such situations - with so great look-down angle - almost doesn't happen IRL and in CMBN, then unless it's a mountain scenario, or a very steppy hill, one tank looking at the other at >25deg angle, there is no need to worry about top armor penetrations. At least against a Tiger tank which had relatively strong top armor. Against a Panther maybe -20deg would be possible sometimes.

[Gian]

Many thanks for the feedback and response. I am glad to hear that there are damage decals on the way. I do hope this is going to be realized and not overlooked going forward as it is a major detractor from an otherwise excellent game.

My Tiger was on a fairly face on angle (top armor almost impossible)to the culprit Sherman, perhaps being roughly 10 - 20 dregrees on my front left, 11 oclock or so. It was one hit and the tank burst into flames and the crew bailed....That is a bit shocking...I am not saying the Tiger should be and was invincable, however I was quite surprised, hence I wanted to analyse the hit data after tha game which I couldn't do. I had the hit text on but that came and went and I couldn't pinpoint it.

I am hoping for improvements around this...and I am hoping that the Tiger is not underarmoured because from what I have read thus far and my own experience it certianly looks and feels like it, but that is another topic I guess.

[A Canadian Cat]

I am hoping for improvements around this...and I am hoping that the Tiger is not underarmoured because from what I have read thus far and my own experience it certianly looks and feels like it, but that is another topic I guess.

Not from my experience. My first encounter with a Tiger tank it cost me 7 tanks to destroy it. That's seven Shermans! Killed the sucker with a side hit from an M10. The Tiger did not get all 7 tanks but more than half I think. The big cat was not alone so I had a lot of work to do to flank it and destroy it. When it went down I had 105 a Sherman moving at it from its front, several 75 Shermans moving towards its rear and the M10 platoon coming at it from the side. I had to take out three or four Stugs to get it surrounded. Those things are nasty and scary and the number of hits it just shrugged of was demoralizing.

[BadgerDog]

It was one hit and the tank burst into flames and the crew bailed....That is a bit shocking...I am not saying the Tiger should be and was invincable, however I was quite surprised ...

What kind of Sherman and what kind of round did it have in its "ready bins" to use against the Tiger?

Regards,

Doug

[Rocky Balboa]

The reason I am curious is that my Tiger was hit and caught flames being hit by Sherman more than a kilometer away. I was curious to see where it hit me.

Don't get discouraged, things like this happen, I had a Sherman last night that managed to get a flank shot on a MK lV from about 70M away and it took 3 rounds to finally kill the dang thing.

First round upper hull penetration no effect, second round upper hull penetration and the turret starts to traverse toward the Sherman as the turret is almost fully traversed the Sherman fires a third round for a kill. The MK lV is knocked out and crew bails but the MK lV never does brew up.

One thing I've learned in this game is that things don't always work out the way you plan.

[Vanir Ausf B]

My Tiger was on a fairly face on angle (top armor almost impossible)to the culprit Sherman, perhaps being roughly 10 - 20 dregrees on my front left, 11 oclock or so. It was one hit and the tank burst into flames and the crew bailed....That is a bit shocking...I am not saying the Tiger should be and was invincable, however I was quite surprised, hence I wanted to analyse the hit data after tha game which I couldn't do. I had the hit text on but that came and went and I couldn't pinpoint it.

I have no idea. The Sherman 75 can penetrate the Tiger lower side hull at 1000m at 0°, but that doesn't seem likely when at your 11 o'clock.

The slightly suped-up British 75mm ammo can penetrate the Tiger anywhere on the side at 1000m and 0°, albeit not reliably.

[MikeyD]

1 hit - tank burst into flames - crew bailed. That sounds like it could'a been a rooftop penetration from a deflected round. They're very very rare, but usually very very lethal when they occur. Tigers and Panthers are usually much tougher when it comes to multiple penetrations but a lucky shot bouncing down into an internal ammo storage locker would ruin even the biggest of bit cats' day.

[Amizaur]

The Tiger was not as sensitive as the Panther to rounds deflected into it's roof, because it has 25mm armor on top of the hull in comparison to the Panther's 16mm.

It would have to be very lucky shot, to bounce in proper way with enough energy to penetrate Tiger's top armor. IIRC it still happened sometimes, maybe even in Bovington Tiger, but in most cases the tank was not knocked out, rather just a crewman was wounded.

[womble]

The possible angles of a top armor hit are so extreme, that there is no practical possibility of Tiger's top armor being penetrated, unless there is a high and very steep hill which allows other tank to look with at least 25deg look-down angle.

I've seen that sort of angle happen on occasion.

The shooting tank would have to fire from at least -20deg slope also, because from horizontal position it could not drop it's barrel to -25deg either .

Barrel depression and elevation limitations are not considered in CMx2's engine, in order, AIUI, to save the AI from a nervous breakdown.

Then it would have chance penetrating Tiger's 25-40mm top armor.

You're saying that a Sherman at a thousand metres couldn't penetrate 25mm armour without a 25degree angle of incidence?

As such situations - with so great look-down angle - almost doesn't happen IRL and in CMBN, then unless it's a mountain scenario, or a very steppy hill, one tank looking at the other at >25deg angle, there is no need to worry about top armor penetrations. At least against a Tiger tank which had relatively strong top armor. Against a Panther maybe -20deg would be possible sometimes.

Doesn't need to be a hill. If your tank has its nose in a ditch or is coming down off a berm or other bank, the top armour is exposed to fire from only slightly higher elevations at potentially only a 45 degree angle of incidence. I have lost two tanks to top hits from popgun ATGs that shouldn't have had a chance, and have killed a couple similarly.

[Amizaur]

I think a 75mm Sherman would have hard time penetrating a 25mm armor plate angled at 25deg from horizontal (so 65deg from vertical) at 1000m. Even if it could pierce it, the tricky thing is to get such angle agains Tiger top armor. To be able to see the Tiger from 1000m at 25deg down angle, the Sherman would have to be some ( sin(25deg) * 1000m) = 420m higher than the Tiger .

Or the Tiger would have to move down trough some obstacle to set itself at -25deg angle against horizontally shooting enemy. This happened much more often.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I have been doing some extensive ballistics testing and it is possible, albeit very rare, for a hit on the Tiger front turret to ricochet down onto the top hull. Oddly, the same does not seem to be true for the Panther D...

[MikeyD]

Deflection shot off the mantlet into the Pathner hulltop does occur the its very rare indeed. I recall once doing a test for that specifically. First shot of the test got the deflection shot I was looking for - then no shots after that, more than a hundred.

[Vanir Ausf B]

more than a hundred.

I have now recorded 1143 hits on the Panther D front turret without seeing a ricochet. Tests were conducted at 500m vs. Cromwell VII. 577 hits were behind a 2 meter berm (full hull down), 566 behind a 1 meter berm (partial hull down).

I did see 3 partial and 1 complete penetration of the "weapon mount" aka the mantlet, which on paper should be about impossible vs the Cromwell's 75mm gun, which has made me wonder if these actually were ricochets that were assigned the wrong hit text. But in other tests I have seen properly labeled ricochets on the Tiger and Cromwell.

[Amizaur]

The penetration would be entirely possible if the game simulates the weak point at and around the optics port . It was possible to penetrate this point with Russian 45mm AT gun, with very carefull aiming, so it should be possible as well with 57 or 75mm guns.

[c3k]

Perhaps it is the ammo or a peculiarity of the range/relative elevation?

I can make an excuse for why your test has failed to show a deflection off the mantlet down into the Panther. Here goes...

The Cromwell VII's 75L40 gun is poor bomb tosser. In order to reach 500m range, the trajectory of the shell must arc in. It is a minor arc, all things considered, but then the ability to hit the lower 1/3 of the Panther mantlet requires some very specific trajectories. The relatively low muzzle velocity of the weapon you've chosen may have something to do with it.

(Lower 1/3 of the mantlet explained: if it hits the upper 1/3, it deflects upwards, agreed? Toss those out. If it hits dead on, then the mantlet "absorbs" the impact. The "dead on" zone is more than just an imaginary line, it is an area... The blunter a shell nose, the larger the "dead on" zone. APCBC (APC), etc., all "dig in" to a greater extant than a pure ogive. These shells would see a larger "dead zone" than the cruder pure ogive. Hence, as shell manufacturing and technology advanced, the less likey the shell was to deflect downwards. Roughly approximating the "dead zone" of the mantlet to be 1/3 of the total area is grossly correct. This leaves 1/3 at the bottom.)

Now, to test it some more, bring the Cromwells in closer. I'd start at 50m and work back in 50m intervals. If I were to test it, that is...

1143 iterations show a willingness...

(Partial and complete penetrations: weak spots, poor castings, better shells with a slightly higher MV, etc. These could explain them. (Smack in the middle of the gunsight, for example.))

As stated, I can use that as an EXCUSE. I don't know the precise trajectory from 500m and how that would intersect the Panther mantlet. My suggestion, however, stands: bring it in closer or use a higher MV weapon. The flatter the trajectory the better the chance of the oft-sought mantlet ricochet.

Ken

[Vanir Ausf B]

Not a bad excuse. I'll do it. I'm actually thinking of starting a new thread about that issue and also about hit distribution on the Tiger front turret. Shots from straight ahead are hitting the 100mm thick Tiger front turret armor without first passing through the mantlet. I think that should be impossible.

[cool breeze]

maybe try it from slightly off dead on too, that way the barrel will be out of the way of the downward traveling round to hit the lower mantle?