umlaut Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Hi Here´s a question I have been unable to find a sactifactory answer for myself. So I thought some of you armor grogs might be able to provide an answer. Some time ago I saw some footage on tv from the general strike and riots in Copenhagen in 1944. And one of the shots showed a Pz IV driving across the town hall square. What puzzles me is this: It was clearly a Pz IV F2 or later - one equipped with the long 75mm gun. Why would the germans place a tank with a very good anti tank gun in Denmark - a country where the chance of meeting enemy armor would be close to zero? The chance would be zero if it hadn´t been for this brave attempt: http://www.milhist.dk/vaaben/lands/v3/v3dk.htm (btw it never saw action - wasn´t finished untill the eve of the liberation) Anyone got an explanation? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 From the German point of view the odds were very good that such a tank might be needed in Scandinavia. The British had a deception plan (Fortitude North) going for years that threatened an invasion of Norway or possibly Denmark. Churchill would have even liked to have actually invaded Norway if sufficient means had been available. Since they weren't, it was found useful to pretend that such an invasion was in the offing. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradley Dick Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Every time I play Hearts of Iron 3, I end up doing some weird combination of events which makes the allies land in Norway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 there was even a Panzerdivision Norwegen. The unit was formed from parts of the 25th Panzerdivision by August 1943. It trained in Norway until March 44. Parts started to transfer in April 44 to France by passing through Denmark to rebuild 25th Panzerdivision. Don't know where they got the Pz IVs on the transfer. The division had 10 StuG III, 14 Panzer II and 43 Panzer III but no Panzer IV (although it should have had 42). In August 1944 at least a few Panzer IV were in the area of Viborg as parts of Panzer-Abteilung 55/233. Panzer-Division. seems that they stayed there at least until November 44. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 Thanks for the replies. Yes, I know about fortitude north, Michael. But Copenhagen is almost as far east as you can get in Denmark, and any invasion would have been on the west coast of Jutland. In 1944 that would have meant at least 24 hours of traveling by road and boat, before the Pz IV would reach the landing area. Doesn´t sound right to me. Anyway, the general strike was in early july 44. Viborg (in Jutland), as Winkelried mentions, would make much more sense as this is only about 100 kilometres from the west coast. I don´t think the panzer could have been in Copenhagen on a stopover from Norway, as this would mean it would have to had to travel by ship to Copenhagen, then from there by road or train, then by ship again, then by road or train once more - before it even reached the german border. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 It would be a lot easier to solve your mystery if we knew what unit the tank belonged to. As it is, all we have to go on is 'there was a tank in Denmark in 1944'. There could be any number of plausible reasons for a tank to be in Denmark in 1944 - a unit rebuilding, a unit transferring, a unit training, etc. Do you have a video or photograph of the tank in question or can you describe the unit markings that are identifiable on the vehicle? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 Sorry, wish I had: it was only one single clip in in some sort of documentary programme. Can´t even remember the title. Anyway, the quality wasn´t certainly not good enough for you to be able to distinguish any markings. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 They were there for...wait for it...... yes it really is gonna be that bad..... Danish I'm here all week, try the beef. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I'm here all week, try the beef. My beef is that you will be here all week. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stolly Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Could have been brought in from an armour school, or a unit refitting or forming in the area. The Germans were pretty good at rushing units and equipment around, seems they spent the entire 2 last years of the war rushing to one emergency or another. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statisoris Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I've seen many many TV WW2 documentaries use footage that simply "fits" the situation or setting. If this was the case with the clip you saw, they might have just thought a fitting clip with a PzIV would be cool and no one would ever question it. The majority of the documentaries are for non-grogs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I've seen many many TV WW2 documentaries use footage that simply "fits" the situation or setting. If this was the case with the clip you saw, they might have just thought a fitting clip with a PzIV would be cool and no one would ever question it. The majority of the documentaries are for non-grogs. indeed, btw, have a list of pro-grog documentaries? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted May 12, 2012 Author Share Posted May 12, 2012 I've seen many many TV WW2 documentaries use footage that simply "fits" the situation or setting. If this was the case with the clip you saw, they might have just thought a fitting clip with a PzIV would be cool and no one would ever question it. The majority of the documentaries are for non-grogs. That possibility has indeed crossed my mind too. But I am certain I recognized the town hall square in the footage - as well as the Pz IV. But I´m not 100 percent sure that they were both in the same shot at the same time. So there is a - small - possibility that it were two independent clips edited together. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 My beef is that you will be here all week. Michael Well that and the fact that BFC continues to let me post even after lines like that. They really have no standards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statisoris Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Boche, haven't seen any newer documentaries in a while that I knew were totally "grogish". Sometimes I will start watching something I think looks really intelligently done and historically accurate and then all of the sudden they will throw in some picture or clip that I know for certain from experience that doesn't belong to the place and time of the subject matter. These three older ones are pretty solid The War (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0996994/) The World At War (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071075/) Battlefield (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120926/) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Cheers, ill check them out, seen a couple of the world at war ones, great DOnt really mind that the images arent 100 percent accruate, I can understand it to a point. Aslong as the information is correct and interesting, dont really mind the images. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnergoz Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 In my experience, most documentary shows about WW2 in particular tend to use whatever footage they can find that fits the theme of their script, and splice it in. So you see film footage of Pz II's in Russia in 1941 being used in a Battle of the Bulge documentary. Happens all the time. Rare is the documentary that has the integrity to do without footage that does not fit the time or place. Most viewers can't tell the difference anyway. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 Even worse is a Battle of the Bulge documentary which uses footage from the execrable movie of the same name. "Roll out the barrels, and we'll have a good ol' time", or somesuch. Sigh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted May 13, 2012 Share Posted May 13, 2012 MkIV's in Copenhagen 1945 http://www.robertpeel.eu/shellhuset1.htm : ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFF Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Even worse is a Battle of the Bulge documentary which uses footage from the execrable movie of the same name. "Roll out the barrels, and we'll have a good ol' time", or somesuch. Sigh. Or, as is almost always the case, the footage showing the guy driving away in a jeep that looks like it's on fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boche Posted May 15, 2012 Share Posted May 15, 2012 Or, as is almost always the case, the footage showing the guy driving away in a jeep that looks like it's on fire. lol yeah, I remember that one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statisoris Posted May 16, 2012 Share Posted May 16, 2012 There is this one video clip that I have seen used very often in WW2 documentaries to describe all sorts of situation. It starts off showing a view down a canal or waterway of some type then all of the sudden a massive explosion occurs and a bunch of debris is thrown toward the camera. The video quality was sort of poor and grainy and of course black and white. For some reason I seem to remember the origin of this clip was from German propaganda footage of some early war assault (maybe the Maginot Line?). Anyone else remember the one I'm talking about? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K.B_Martinsen Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 I was just wondering if this was the tank in question the pic is from from mid-lat 43 and tanken at Rådhuspladsen(city hall square) copenhagen(sry for small pic in bad quallety) 2 pzIV in copenhagen port out side Svanemølle kaserne(a barrack in norden part of copenhagen whis has been used by german troops as a show of force in copenhagen(ther do exist a nice short film where both of em is driving thu the central part of copenhagen but i cudent find it atm sry) (Pz Kpfw IV Ausf. H/J (left, turret number 133) and a Pz Kpfw IV Ausf. G/H?) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerfest Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 There is this one video clip that I have seen used very often in WW2 documentaries to describe all sorts of situation. It starts off showing a view down a canal or waterway of some type then all of the sudden a massive explosion occurs and a bunch of debris is thrown toward the camera. The video quality was sort of poor and grainy and of course black and white. For some reason I seem to remember the origin of this clip was from German propaganda footage of some early war assault (maybe the Maginot Line?). Anyone else remember the one I'm talking about? It's from the assault on the Belgian fortress Eben Emael in 1940, go to ~2:40 for the extended scene! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Statisoris Posted May 18, 2012 Share Posted May 18, 2012 Oh ok, cool, good to finally know where this video came from. I've seen in so many times. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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