First test with Fireflies vs King Tiger

[slysniper]

First test with Fireflies vs King Tiger

Just had to see if the fireflies will have what it takes in the worst case situation of taking out Heavy armor.

Test was simply One King Tiger vs 5 Fireflies at over 500 Meters apart.

on real time , Warrior setting. Veteran crews except for the Tiger, I gave him a crack unit.

Results

If I played the German, which was I was Micro managing his shots.

Shermans killed -Tiger killed

1-1

5-0

5-0

5-0

1-1

total 17 fireflies lost, Two King Tigers

Playing the allied side, Which I had to do nothing. ( only the King Tiger did stupid things when the AI manages it.)

3-1

1-1

1-1

0-1

1-1

Total 6 fireflies lost, 5 King Tigers

So, the King Tiger is not totally invinciable, even from the front. It appeared most of the penetrations came from apds rounds, But the shermans fired both type of rounds and I am not sure why, since they all had 5 apds rounds on Board, but some were not firing them. Second, the King Tiger will Suck in Wego since most of the problem was with the AI, it would not hold steady to fire its shots. Was wasting time rotating tank and Turret where as, in Real Time I could get it Rotating only its Turret and that increased it fire rate.

Also left on its own, it was wanting to move forward at a angle, which was exposing its flank some. Which was not a good thing.

I will let the expert Grogs say if they think them numbers seem good.

Look weak to me, but it will just let me want to play the Allied side more, I seem to have plenty of success on that side in this version of the game.

[thejetset]

500 meters is pretty short range. You want those King Tigers in DEEP ... try it again at 800-1000 meters and see what happens.

[Vanir Ausf B]

It appeared most of the penetrations came from apds rounds

One of the first things I'm going to test is the accuracy of APDS rounds. WW2-era APDS was very inaccurate (and also tended to do less damage per penetration than APCBC), and I've had this gnawing worry for a while now that CW would model it as having the same accuracy as APCBC.

[siffo998]

well what we see in the game right now is the tiger Ausf.B with the PORSCHE Turret. Only the 50 first produced tiger II were equipped with that turret (front turret: 110mm at 10°, and mantlet: 150mm at 13° rounded ). the later HENSCHEL Turret variant had 180mm at 10° armor.

http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/tiger2.htm

the real buggers are the henschel ones.

heres a interesting quote from the site (its from Germanys Tiger tanks from Jentz):

The frontal armor of the Tiger II provided the best protection possible - the front turret was 180 mm inclined at 10 degrees from the vertical, compounded with a special designed mantlet, which was immune to penetration and being jammed. The glacis plate was a 150 mm thick plate inclined at 50 degrees from vertical, so the actual protection given by the armor plate inclination was more than 230 mm. There is no proof that this frontal armor was ever penetrated in combat, even though the British 17 Pounder, when using a special APDS ammunition, could theoretically penetrate the Tiger II front armor (front turret and lower front hull, only - the 17 Pounder could not penetrate the Tiger II glacis plate), but those APDS rounds were terribly inaccurate and had a tendency of ricochet off inclined armor such as was the lower front hull (100 mm inclined at 50 degrees from the vertical) of the Tiger II. Even the side and rear armor protection was sufficient to eliminate any serious threat from the American 75 mm or the Russian 76 mm tanks guns. The hull was welded, as was that of the Tiger I, but the armor was better sloped, using the experience of the T-34. Hull layout was similar to that of the Panther, and the large turret was roomy although the gun came right back to the rear wall and made a complete partition longitudinally.

Also like thejetset already said: 500m is very damn close. especially for that potent gun of the Tiger II or the Jagdpanther. Do not get closer than 800m - 1000m.

[siffo998]

i have reread your post slysniper and it seems your test setup is also a bit... hm... strange:

ONE Tiger II against !FIVE! Fireflyes. thats a situation that most definitly never happened in reality and you will normally never see it ingame. a fair test would be a one on one situation.

i actually wondered that the tiger II at all achieved a victory under that circumstances (killed all 5 of the fireflys.

[Rokko]

How do you get KT in the editor?

[Vanir Ausf B]

It has to be July or August. They are in the Heavy Panzer Battalion.

[slysniper]

500 meters is pretty short range. You want those King Tigers in DEEP ... try it again at 800-1000 meters and see what happens.

Oh, I will when I have a little time, I do not test to prove that the game is only a game, I test to see how I will use units in the game

I tested that range first, because a majority of engagements are going to be in or around that distance within the game.

Yes I would expect to see some change towards a king Tiger side when I run one at 1500m

But lets face it, do I want to engage a Ktiger at that range, no matter with what I have. Not many maps will force me into that situation. And the ones that do, I better have 20 Shermans to that King to make it interesting.

[slysniper]

One of the first things I'm going to test is the accuracy of APDS rounds. WW2-era APDS was very inaccurate (and also tended to do less damage per penetration than APCBC), and I've had this gnawing worry for a while now that CW would model it as having the same accuracy as APCBC.

At 500m, there is really no misses happening, lets see what happens farther out

[slysniper]

i have reread your post slysniper and it seems your test setup is also a bit... hm... strange:

ONE Tiger II against !FIVE! Fireflyes. thats a situation that most definitly never happened in reality and you will normally never see it ingame. a fair test would be a one on one situation.

i actually wondered that the tiger II at all achieved a victory under that circumstances (killed all 5 of the fireflys.

was not trying for a duel, one on one. Dont know what game you are playing , but I have found I am able to get 2 or 3 long 76"s together very often to attack a panther or tiger from the front if I need to, I figure I will be able to find at least that many fireflies, if needed. As for 5, you are correct, overkill. All I wanted to see was if they can cut through the Tiger in the Game.

Considering that most of the King Tingers were lost with in the first few shots within my test, when they were lost. They were not proving to be as tough as I thought they would or should be even at 500m

[ricroma]

What amazes me is that you've got the chance to play the game and instead you're making tests! :eek:

This is what I call devotion...

[c3k]

Fun stuff, eh?

Now, put 4 or 5 of those KT's up on a small rise, partially hull-down. Start a battalion of Shermans about 3 or 4 kms out, all on open ground. Have the Shermans try to close. I demand at least 10 runs of this test.

(Then, to be fair, have the KT's run out of gas. How well do they fight the next day?)

[TrailApe]

Now, put 4 or 5 of those KT's up on a small rise, partially hull-down. Start a battalion of Shermans about 3 or 4 kms out, all on open ground. Have the Shermans try to close. I demand at least 10 runs of this test.

Battalion commander reads the situation, considers his options then gets onto the radio and calls up tons of arty and CAS.

2 hours later the Shermans are trundling past the battered mission-killed Tigers.

(although I'll not mention the 88's in the treeline just waiting.........)

[ZPB II]

I started running a series of test duels between a King Tiger and a Jagdpanther at 1200 metres. The KT soundly trumped the JP, which was a bit of a surprise since I thought the JP featured a better optics suite. Then I noticed the JP was facing directly towards the sun, which I only assume impacts the spotting quite a bit...

[wokelly]

There is no proof that this frontal armor was ever penetrated in combat, even though the British 17 Pounder, when using a special APDS ammunition, could theoretically penetrate the Tiger II front armor (front turret and lower front hull, only - the 17 Pounder could not penetrate the Tiger II glacis plate), but those APDS rounds were terribly inaccurate and had a tendency of ricochet off inclined armor such as was the lower front hull (100 mm inclined at 50 degrees from the vertical) of the Tiger II.

*Cough*

[slysniper]

What amazes me is that you've got the chance to play the game and instead you're making tests! :eek:

This is what I call devotion...

No, I played one battle, wanted a infantry fight, had some fun and played one in real time.

But I prefer playing armor battles H to H, so setting up and running the test was only about a hour, plus I was able to see how the unit would do without having to find out the hard way in a game.

[slysniper]

Fun stuff, eh?

Now, put 4 or 5 of those KT's up on a small rise, partially hull-down. Start a battalion of Shermans about 3 or 4 kms out, all on open ground. Have the Shermans try to close. I demand at least 10 runs of this test.

(Then, to be fair, have the KT's run out of gas. How well do they fight the next day?)

I would prefer to create a scenario a little like that with one or two kings taking on an Ton of armor, now with the AI, you can at least make the Allies a challendge and make the game for AI play. Not many real players that want to watch 20 Shermans go up in flame before they might have a chance to do something about it.

But first I have to find the range that a Tiger is Truely king, , it should show up at some point. whether realistic or not is another story

[Thomm]

I would prefer to create a scenario a little like that with one or two kings taking on an Ton of armor, now with the AI, you can at least make the Allies a challendge and make the game for AI play. Not many real players that want to watch 20 Shermans go up in flame before they might have a chance to do something about it.

Exactly what I did in many armor-only QBs. Give the AI King Tigers and try to kill them with whatever the auto-selection gives you. Depending on the terrain, it can be fun ...

Best regards,

Thomm

[siffo998]

*Cough*

well interesting picture... i have never seen that... where and when was it taken ?

but it also only shows a turret penetration (which is possible according to the quote). the glacis wasnt penetrated.

[wokelly]

It is actually from wikipedia but I have seen this photo debated on Axis history forum prior to its appearance on wikipedia. Interestingly what I read there stated this King Tiger was knocked out in the US sector by a 3" gun firing HVAP. Given HVAP was only marginally better than 17 pdr APCBC, this may indicate armour quality problems on this tank.

Looks like it was KOed frontally in battle. Only 5 hits with 1 penetration on the front does not suggest a firing test done by a unit on a hulk, usually you see a dozen or more hits with those ones.

[Karabekian]

There are instances of front turret penetrations on King Tigers (With "Henschel" turrets).

It is the front armour (glacis) that is the un-penetrated one.

Tiger 301 (3. Kompanie, sPzAbt.503) is the one in the photo.

Other photos show it has 3-4 deep hits in the lower glacis before the battle it was knocked out in. At this time it also has lost its equipment, the mudguards and lights etc. Some serious combat it seems.

It received 4 visible hits on the upper glacis, and the one that punched trough the turret. It seems definately possible for a Firefly to penetrate the near vertical turret front, judging from the very deep marks left on the well sloped, 150mm glacis.

The tank was one that 3kp was refitted with and drove trough Paris (some nice photos exist). It must have been knocked out near Paris, possibly at Mantes.

[slysniper]

OK, time to post next test

new test range 1000m this time, One King Tiger vs 5 Fireflies on real time , Warrior setting. Veteran crews except for the KTiger, I gave him a crack unit.

Results

I played the German, which was I was Micro managing his shots.

Shermans killed -Tiger killed

2-0 KT damaged gun, pulled out of action

1-0 abandoned good tank

2-0 abandoned good tank

5-0

1-0 kt damaged gun, pulled out of action

0-1 first 2 enemy shots penetrated and he was dead

3-0 lost 2 crew men and pulled out of action

1-0 KT damaged gun and then abandoned

0-1 lost weapon control then killed

5-0

total 20 fireflies lost, Two King Tigers lost, 3 abandoned, 3 pulled out of action

remember the first test was

total 23 fireflies lost, 7 King Tigers lost

So really, not much better results other than the King Tiger is not getting rightout killed as much anymore, but still, I would have lost 5 to victory points and 3 more would have to leave the action. I can see them results because I expect damage, but full penetrations are still coming pretty often.

I will say at least the shermans are having a little problem with hitting their first few shots at this range, where as the KTiger seems to hardly ever miss, but I did not keep them Stats.

Old Test was simply, One King Tiger vs 5 Fireflies at over 500 Meters apart.

on real time , Warrior setting. Veteran crews except for the Tiger, I gave him a crack unit.

Results

If I played the German, which was I was Micro managing his shots.

Shermans killed -Tiger killed

1-1

5-0

5-0

5-0

1-1

total 17 fireflies lost, Two King Tigers

Playing the allied side, Which I had to do nothing. ( only the King Tiger did stupid things when the AI manages it.)

3-1

1-1

1-1

0-1

1-1

Total 6 fireflies lost, 5 King Tigers

[slysniper]

bump, yes, I want comments

[c3k]

Someone posted a link to a 5 part youtube series examining who killed Wittmann (sp?). Part of that showed the location of a Firefly, ~800m, firing at Tigers from the Tigers' 2 o'clock. 3 shots, 3 hits. The Tigers were advancing.

That's a real world result, backed up with some impressive post-battlefield examinations.

No comment on the KT accuracy (or frequency of being put hors de combat), purely a commentary on the Firefly accuracy. First round hits at 1,000m should not be a rarity. It seems they are not.

(The rate of evacuation seems high, but may be balanced by the knowledge that Fireflies are getting hits and the KT is vulnerable to the Firefly.)

C'mon, put it at 2k.

Ken

[slysniper]

Someone posted a link to a 5 part youtube series examining who killed Wittmann (sp?). Part of that showed the location of a Firefly, ~800m, firing at Tigers from the Tigers' 2 o'clock. 3 shots, 3 hits. The Tigers were advancing.

That's a real world result, backed up with some impressive post-battlefield examinations.

No comment on the KT accuracy (or frequency of being put hors de combat), purely a commentary on the Firefly accuracy. First round hits at 1,000m should not be a rarity. It seems they are not.

(The rate of evacuation seems high, but may be balanced by the knowledge that Fireflies are getting hits and the KT is vulnerable to the Firefly.)

C'mon, put it at 2k.

Ken

1500m next, but that will likely be it for my testing. Lets see, in all the years of playing the game, Which I only like playing scenarios, not a QB fan at all.

I can count on my hand the tank duels that I have had at them ranges (well that is not completely true, I have to forget all the CMBB games), and out of them I only recall one where I had fireflies vs Tiger I's, not Tiger II"s in CMAK days.