Albe Pavo Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Hello guys! I'm playing the missione "busting the bocage", but i do not understand one thing. The tactic is: 1. move the rhino through the bocage to create a hole, 2. fire with rhino, mg and mortars on the other side of bocage, 3. assault with infantry, 4. create a hole with engineers 5. advance with everybody 6. repeat I simply do not understand the point 4. Why create a hole with engineers, when the rhino already created it? Taliking about tactic, i found it risky for the rhino because, if on the other side there is a AT gun or some infantry with AT weapons, the tank is in a very dangerous situation!!! Maybe i do not fully understand the tactic.. can you help me? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryCMBB Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Some ideas. It is dangerous to move the Rhino up to the bocage right away. You always need to send infantry up to the bocage to see what is behind the next row of bocage before endangering the tanks. So step 1 above seems too soon. In many missions you won't have Rhinos so the engineers will blow the holes in the bocage. Gerry 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wreck Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Holes are holes. It does not matter how a hole came to be. The point of making it is your own tactical mobility. If you made a hole with a rhino you don't need to make another, unless the enemy can fire on your hole and you can find a better place. Use engineers to make holes if the field is covered by AT so that using a rhino is too risky. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 And even before you start breaching with the engineers, make sure they won't be under fire. In some cases you may need to suppress the far side of the field with artillery, or cover it with some smoke. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gunnersman Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I know its not doctrine, but when using the regular army (not airborne) I always separate the 60mm mortars and attach them to a platoon. Those mortars wreak havoc on the back side of bocage. They are quick to respond and very accurate. It's best to use some suppressing fire first before bringing up the mortar team into LOS of the intended target. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Hello guys! I'm playing the missione "busting the bocage", but i do not understand one thing. The tactic is: 1. move the rhino through the bocage to create a hole, 2. fire with rhino, mg and mortars on the other side of bocage, 3. assault with infantry, 4. create a hole with engineers 5. advance with everybody 6. repeat I simply do not understand the point 4. Why create a hole with engineers, when the rhino already created it? Taliking about tactic, i found it risky for the rhino because, if on the other side there is a AT gun or some infantry with AT weapons, the tank is in a very dangerous situation!!! Maybe i do not fully understand the tactic.. can you help me? Did you read the designer notes - the inclusion of engineers and Rhinos is explained in that? Anyways seeing as I've been out climbing today and in a very good mood I'll post the bit from the designer notes This scenario is based on the an operation involving new combined arms tactics developed by the US 1st Army’s 29th Infantry Division commanded by General Gerhardt. Although the date of this action was the 11th July and I’ve equipped some of the Shermans with the Culin Hedgerow* cutting device (Or Rhinos as they were known), it is worth stating that this device only became more common in 1st Army after the 14th July 1944. By having Rhino equipped Shermans in this scenario it allows you the player, using the engineer sections, to trial the tactics used by the 29th ID and then compare them to the ease of using the ‘Rhino’ equipped Shermans to punch through the bocage. See? Simples! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymru Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 If you made a hole with a rhino you don't need to make another, unless the enemy can fire on your hole and you can find a better place. To quote a famous cartoon "If you know a better hole, go to it!" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocky Balboa Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 To echo what George MC said. The scenario was designed so that you could get a feel for the different ways in which the Allies would breach bocage. Sometimes engineers were available most times they weren't which is why the Rhinos where sorely needed. In this scenario specifically, sometimes different tactical situations call for different approaches. For example if you need to breach bocage but you know or suspect an AT Gun might have that area under observation, what would you use? Engineers or Rhino? In either case the best approach is to suppress all known or suspected threats before conducting any kind of breach 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albe Pavo Posted February 1, 2012 Author Share Posted February 1, 2012 I just ended the scenario, i won but i learned a bloody lesson: never take too much time on suppressing fire with infantry, never stay in the same place for too much time or the german will kill you with artillery fire. Another lesson: is always better to split squads in team. I lost at least 2 squads almost entirely because of artillery fire on a fixed firing position. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killkess Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 BTW... was it always that easy to get a tank in a position to shot? From what i´ve read one reason why the bocage was such a nice piece of land to defend was the fact of seriously restricting the use of tanks. I would also think that, speaking about high bocage, most tanks were not able to shot over. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killkess Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 This is a shameless BUMP 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Well it can go both ways Pavo. one of the surest ways to lose men is to not suppress or kill a target and rush your men into a live defensive position. Best to blast it heavily for a minute or two, then remove HE from the equation to stop friendly fire, (while still pouring on mg fire) and run up an assault team or two. I usually try to use two assault teams where possible, and also I usually try to run one a little to the left of where the Germans are and one a little to the right. As far as tanks in the hedgerows - if you think theres an AT gun you need the engineers if at all possible. Tanks will almost certainly lose every time to an AT gun. The spotting game and everything is working against you. Much better IMO to use tanks on known targets. I have them lurk back a little until Im pretty sure I know whats in the immediate area. then i pull them up and engage. Also if I think theres enemy armor around at all, I restrict tank movement (especially as allies) and if I must move my armor its in short hops. in 99% of the tank duels Ive had so far, the tank sitting still usually spots first and gets off the first accurate shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 BTW... was it always that easy to get a tank in a position to shot? From what i´ve read one reason why the bocage was such a nice piece of land to defend was the fact of seriously restricting the use of tanks. I would also think that, speaking about high bocage, most tanks were not able to shot over. Those are excellent points. With the hedgerow banks being 1.5- 2 meters high (and adjoining lanes also being sunken), one would think this would rule out using any hull-mounted armament or AT gun, absent a prepared position including a "gap" (firing port) excavated in the hedgerow.. And even turret-mounted guns must contend with the dense thicket of trees, hedge and vines on top. Even if you can poke the muzzle through, the foliage severely resrricts sighting and traverse. A suitable in-game adjustment might be to make all AFV fire through non-gapped High Bocage Area Fire even if the unit can "see" the target. This would need testing though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 A suitable in-game adjustment might be to make all AFV fire through non-gapped High Bocage Area Fire even if the unit can "see" the target. This would need testing though. Good suggestion, LLF. One very partial remedy that already exists is that on maps using authentic bocage patterns from real places, the field and boundary patterns lead to many more odd angles of high bocage that won't let an AFV cozy up at 90 degrees to it to get a proper LOF, and often not even a LOS (as I'm sure you're now discovering to your dismay on my Hamel Vallee map ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LongLeftFlank Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 [grumbles something inaudible under breath] 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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