Enough Bocage already

[edudak]

As much fun as fighting in the bocage can be (not), I've done just about all of them and now I'm ready for some post allied breakout battles. I yearn for the open country! Any news about maybe developing some battles from late 1944 or early 1945?

[Wreck]

Actually I like bocage, as the American attacker anyway. I get the awesome 60mm mortar, and the poor Germans do not. But even as the German attacker, bocage offers plenty of safe lines of advance. You just have to find them or create them.

Open country gives me the willies, even more than it did in CMBO. At least in CMBO you could get cover in woods (even scattered trees), the occasional small building, rough, etc. There's almost no cover at all in CMBO, other than that from elevation-blocking LOS.

[phil stanbridge]

I feel your pain. It's going to be some time before we see late 1944 battles mate although maybe there are some user made scenarios with plenty of open country? We've got the Commonwealth coming early next year followed by the Arnhem module I believe (or maybe it will be the 'funnies' module first). That should allow for some different terrain at least, but I can't imagine we'll be seeing that until late 2012 at the earliest, or well into 2013 if its the latter first.

[YankeeDog]

For truly proper late '44 - '45 battles, you'll have to wait for the next game in the CMx2 series: CM:Battle of the Bulge. No specific word on release date from BFC, but I'd expect it's at least a year away, probably more like 2.

But you won't need to wait for CM:Bulge for non-bocage fights. Bocage was far less prevalent in the Western Part of Normandy, and the terrain in general this sector was often more open that what was in front of American troops (though still hardly "tank country"), so we should get substantial numbers of non-Bocage maps with the CM:Commonwealth module. I'll make a pretty confident guess that the Commonwealth module will be out within the next 6 months.

[edudak]

For truly proper late '44 - '45 battles, you'll have to wait for the next game in the CMx2 series: CM:Battle of the Bulge. No specific word on release date from BFC, but I'd expect it's at least a year away, probably more like 2.

But you won't need to wait for CM:Bulge for non-bocage fights. Bocage was far less prevalent in the Western Part of Normandy, and the terrain in general this sector was often more open that what was in front of American troops (though still hardly "tank country"), so we should get substantial numbers of non-Bocage maps with the CM:Commonwealth module. I'll make a pretty confident guess that the Commonwealth module will be out within the next 6 months.

Yeah, the Battle of the Bulge will be non bocage but the terrain was hardly open country. Still it is one of the battles we all love to fight from both sides so it will be welcome. In the meantime I'll have to be content with "Cheerio, old chap" and play with the Brits. Thanks for the info.

[Mord]

Yeah, you'll see plenty of non bocage maps soon...we are still waiting on the Brits, Canadians, Poles, Waffen SS, Luftwaffe...and later Falshrimjagers and Gebirsjagers (maybe French?)...there's a ton of great stuff ahead of us and once we have all the kit, or at least more of it, we'll be fighting battles that took place in France and Holland up to September 44...maybe into October...a lot of guys are probably waiting until they have the proper troop types and equipment to make accurate stuff.

I am really excited about the Commonwealth module but man, I am gonna pee all over my keyboard once we get to Market Garden!

Mord.

[Praetori]

Yeah, the Battle of the Bulge will be non bocage but the terrain was hardly open country. Still it is one of the battles we all love to fight from both sides so it will be welcome. In the meantime I'll have to be content with "Cheerio, old chap" and play with the Brits. Thanks for the info.

The approaches to Caen as well as the areas to the west of the city were open enough. Though there were some other obstacles in the area such as the 12th SS and Panzer Lehr.

As an allied attacker I think I'd prefer the bocage. :cool:

[Michael Emrys]

As it happens, only a tiny percentage of the battles I have fought so far have been in serious bocage. I've mostly been interested in replicating the kinds of battles that took place in August, especially mid- to late-August, after the Cobra breakout and the situation had become more mobile and fluid. Some of the QB maps provided, both those that came with the game and some of the user-provided, are suitable or at least acceptable for this kind of combat. So, what I am saying is that if a player is tired of fighting in bocage, there really is no need to be waiting impatiently for more open fights. Especially if you are handy with the scenario editor (something I have not attempted or am likely to ), you can replicate almost any kind battle during this period.

Michael

[YankeeDog]

An related inquiry is whether we will eventually get the terrain and TOEs to represent the battles around Arracourt, France in late September with the Market Garden module. The editor already pretty much has the terrain elements necessary; mostly it's just a matter of a few new TOEs and a couple of new vehicles (M18 Hellcat primarily).

If you're looking knock-down, no holds barred, U.S. vs. German, Armor vs. Armor fights from the ETO, you can't do better than Arracourt. U.S. 4th Armored vs. the 11th Panzer (predominantly). Definitely more open terrain than Norman bocage, too. Not wide open steppe, to be sure, but the terrain around Arracourt was definitely more conducive to Armored maneuver than what was on the Cotentin Peninsula.

[Mord]

Well, I remember asking Steve about a year back, about terrain in the Market Garden Module and he said they would add stuff that was Holland specific so, I hope that still stands...and hopefully that will be enough to cover any of the terrain we'd be likely to encounter up until the cut off dates for all the regions we could fight in...

I know one thing. I'd like to see some more variety of trees...specially pine.

Mord.

[Chek]

I've got so used of slogging from one hedge to the next that the thought of wide open terrain(relatively speaking)is kinda scary.

[phil stanbridge]

That's exactly the problem we as players face. You get used to one style of play, ie, creeping from hedge to hedge, only to have to 're-learn' your tactics in open fields etc. I guess it all comes in handy at the end of the day. Either way, looking forward to all the next modules.

[bruce90]

I know there is no chance of it happening but personally I would have much preferred to have seen the three base games, Normandy, Market Garden then The Bulge come out and then modules added to them later.

[Broadsword56]

An related inquiry is whether we will eventually get the terrain and TOEs to represent the battles around Arracourt, France in late September with the Market Garden module. The editor already pretty much has the terrain elements necessary; mostly it's just a matter of a few new TOEs and a couple of new vehicles (M18 Hellcat primarily).

If you're looking knock-down, no holds barred, U.S. vs. German, Armor vs. Armor fights from the ETO, you can't do better than Arracourt. U.S. 4th Armored vs. the 11th Panzer (predominantly). Definitely more open terrain than Norman bocage, too. Not wide open steppe, to be sure, but the terrain around Arracourt was definitely more conducive to Armored maneuver than what was on the Cotentin Peninsula.

The Lorraine campaign, overall, also featured some pretty ferocious infantry combat in Sept-Oct '44 as the Americans crossed the Moselle and fought dug-in Germans over a series of hills and plateaus as they hooked around Nancy. Terrain has some rough areas, hills and forests, but otherwise is pretty good for open battles in its eastern parts:

"East of the Moselle...the plateau formation continues for some distances. Metz and Nancy lie close to the wide valleys of the Nied and Seille Rivers, known as "the Lorraine plain" (La Plaine). This rich, rolling agricultural region is interlaced with small streams, dotted with occasional woods and isolated buttes, and intersected at intervals by flat-topped ridges. Here are found the characteristic Lorraine villages, small, compact, and with buildings and walls of stone."

--Hugh M. Cole, The Lorraine Campaign (US Army Green Book)

For armor, in addition to Arracourt, there was a hellacious tank battle at nearby Luneville on 18 Sept '44.

[YankeeDog]

I know there is no chance of it happening but personally I would have much preferred to have seen the three base games, Normandy, Market Garden then The Bulge come out and then modules added to them later.

Market Garden will not be a separate game; it will be a module to CMBN.

But I think the whole idea is that future Game Family releases such as CM:Bulge (as opposed to modules) will incorporate substantial improvements to the game engine itself (as opposed to just new terrain, TOEs, and units, which is what modules provide). So, base game families can't be released simultaneously because BFC needs time to design and code the engine improvements. This would be like the Germans trying to design and build the Panther at the same time that they designed and built the PzIV -- an engineering impossibility since the former is based partially on the lessons learned from building and fielding the latter.

Personally, I'm fine with this as long as CM:East Front is done later in the engine development cycle so it benefits from all of the improvements (as appears to be the plan). As far as I'm concerned, for WWII land combat, the East Front is the main course and everything else is appetizers and side dishes.

[LongLeftFlank]

Well by the time I finish my monster bocage map I'm hoping you'll all be sick to death of Holland and want to go back to it for a bit.

[Broadsword56]

Don't worry, LLF -- your monster La Meauffe map will be a masterpiece, and I know I'll certainly play the heck out of it. Also, I always enjoy playing Normandy maps because that part of France looks so doggoned beautiful (before the carnage, that is) -- orchards, lush pastures, what's not to like?

[medlinke]

I'm definitely jonesing for some variety as well.

[fry30]

Oh I wonder what people will be saying in another five years:

These wide open Eastern Front Battles are really X and Y. We should go and do something like A or B.

[John1966]

Personally, I'm fine with this as long as CM:East Front is done later in the engine development cycle so it benefits from all of the improvements (as appears to be the plan). As far as I'm concerned, for WWII land combat, the East Front is the main course and everything else is appetizers and side dishes.

Quite. On the other hand, I'd have liked to have started on the Eastern Front for the same reasons. (Just like we did in Squal Leader a very, very, very long time ago )

[John1966]

Yeah, the Battle of the Bulge will be non bocage but the terrain was hardly open country.

Bet I get fed up with Belgian forests real fast. Still haven't worked out how to deal with the little Normandy ones. And I hate having to turn the trees off to see what's going on. (OK, I have the "show nearby stumps" option on but it still feels weird)

[YankeeDog]

Oh I wonder what people will be saying in another five years:

These wide open Eastern Front Battles are really X and Y. We should go and do something like A or B.

It's a common misperception that the East Front fighting was predominantly in open terrain. The East front involved fighting on almost every type of terrain imaginable, from dense forests and cities to wide open steppe.

In fact, if BFC sticks to the stated plan of releasing CM:Bagration as the first East Front title, the Belorussian terrain that the majority of the fighting in this operation took place upon will be fairly similar to Western France -- not as tight as Norman Bocage, but hardly Ukrainian Steppe, either.

[Childress]

In fact, if BFC sticks to the stated plan of releasing CM:Bagration as the first East Front title, the Belorussian terrain that the majority of the fighting in this operation took place upon will be fairly similar to Western France -- not as tight as Norman Bocage, but hardly Ukrainian Steppe, either.

It's kind of surprising that Battlefront is doing another East Front game at all given the alleged disappointing sales of CMBB. It seems that the bulk of their customer base- the quiet majority?- demands the presence of Americans.

[slysniper]

It's kind of surprising that Battlefront is doing another East Front game at all given the alleged disappointing sales of CMBB. It seems that the bulk of their customer base- the quiet majority?- demands the presence of Americans.

That is because they are wargamers themselves, they want it for the hobby as much as any of us do. Not just for the dollar figure. And it is a good thing that they are into this hobby, because if they were not, I think this demanding crowd that loves to pick on the imperfections of the game would have drove them away long ago.

[YankeeDog]

It's kind of surprising that Battlefront is doing another East Front game at all given the alleged disappointing sales of CMBB. It seems that the bulk of their customer base- the quiet majority?- demands the presence of Americans.

Hard to say why... I think BFC's long-term planning is influenced partially by what will sell, and partially by what they feel like doing.

It might well be that an Italian or North African theater game would make more money than an East Front title, but if an East Front title will sell enough to keep food on the table, and it's what they feel like pouring their energy and time into, then more power to them.

After all, from a strictly financial viewpoint, I'm sure Steve & Co. could make a heck of a lot more money putting their time and effort into making the next Farmville or Peggle or whatever...