CMBN vs. APOS, and the future of CMx2(?).

[Apocalypse 31]

Add

-On screen CAS and CCA (close combat attack) would be nice

and ragdoll for our virtual infantrymen

[Destraex1]

I didn't really mean to offend people with the "**** you if.." thing. I was mostly listing complaints from friends.

As I said, I find CMBN superior to APOS, and it's better where it counts. It's more realistic, feels more "tight", but some of it is still lacking. It's hard to put my finger on exactly what.

I haven't really posted any screenies from AP/APOS anywhere. I posted a screenshot from the CMBN demo, and many people thought it was from a AAA developer, getting E-boners from seeing the awesome Panther and Marder models. Then they tested the demo, and got turned off the game. I've been playing CM all the way since CMBO, so I don't notice all the stuff they moan about.

The MP thing was also complaints from friends, because they mostly play MP.

It would be awesome if we had both AI and scripted/planned stuff. Example: After the final order, you could issue an "attack objectives" order. That way the battle wouldn't just stop. And it would add the element of surprise when hidden enemies come pouring towards the objectives.

I think you will find your finger is on the pulse if you say that a 2011 computer has trouble with it because of its single core antics. I find that is one of my only real complaints with the game along with the map graphics. The game just crawls along most of the time due to the combination of clunky camera and poor CPU performance.

Cannot complain really because it is a sh!t hot game and one of a kind . I will be getting the addon!!

As for operation star I own kharkov and have player the demo of star. But the interface is made of fail. The camera moves too slowly and is not accurate along with not being able to zoom out far enough to see the over all picture. Units are meant to be represented on a 1:1 ration but I simply do not see the numbers represented in CMBN.

It is nice though to have a strat map leading into games along with the tactical maps allowing very well spaced deployment and concentration tactics. CMBN can represent the concentration in a scenario but not the decision to do so and gain local superiority on a tactical map, the CMBN maps are simply too small in most cases or when they are big are too confusing and clunky.

Infantry combat is where CMBN shines compared to operation star. Operation Stars infantry combat feels much more like a random dice affair and never looks like men are taking cover other than going prone.

CMBN is insane when it comes to doing infantry combat well and guess what? Thats what WW2 was about... still.

IMHO the terrain graphics and effects are light years ahead in operation star, but the unit models and vehicle models are much nicer in CMBN. The unit and vehicle textures however are much better in operation star.

[Tactical Wargamer]

What type of scenario generaton does it have? Of course from my signature interested in what forms of MP options there are. That in my mind is the ONLY weakness in the CMBN engine. Albeit a major one for me

<Edit> No MP options at all. Wow in 2011. That is horrible. Oh well.

[Rambler]

What would you gents recommend I try (not into struggling w/ Russian and clunky interface) in the CM world? Is CMBN the right way to go? I don't typically play much of anything against other folks so need at least some rudimentary AI to get my fix. Any opinions appreciated.

Oh, and yes, this post is off topic and my first on this forum. Apologies to admin, feel free to delete it, move it, etc...

Have you taken a look at Combat Mission: Shock Force? I highly recommend that game suite. Truth be told, as much as I love WW2, I think I like CMSF a little better. It's a modern era wargame that deals with a fictional invasion of Syria. If you buy the base game plus all the modules (USMC, Brits and NATO) you'll have a huge selection of forces. There are a TON of missions that will keep you busy for quite awhile. If modern isn't your thing, then the only other choice you have is CMBN, and it's a good one as well.

You can download the demo for CMSF and CMBN on battlefront's main site to take them for a test drive.

[MikeyD]

There's already much in the works for CM's future that even our testers don't know about

I'm surprised more Beta guys haven't posted saying "Say what??!!!"

[Mord]

I checked out some vids of that game and it does look nice but I still prefer CMBN's graphics. I think it comes down to not just the superb modeling but the textures...most other games have always looked cartoony to me...like TOW and this APOS.

I also really like the way squads work in CMBN as opposed to having a bunch of single soldiers on map. It's just more appealing and I enjoy the cohesion and aesthetics of it. Of course there's room for some adjustments when it comes to placement (MG trigger man positioning being one) but over all I am really happy with it.

As far as CMX2/CMBN goes, I feel we are about 85% perfect graphics wise...there are a few minor additions or tweaks (one, that could be seen in APOS) I'd like to see. One would be having an actual animation of the guys moving an AT gun instead of them walking and it sliding. Another would be to have tank commanders both US and German use their binocs once and a while, and maybe AFVs...far as I can tell only the M10 and Priest commanders use binoculars on vehicles...the Marder Commander won't even use his.

Crews bailing out the second an explosion appears...I'd like to see at least 5 to 10 seconds before guys start pouring out of their vehicle. A lot of times they seem to exit the moment the tank has been hit....there should be some lag to represent death, confusion, shock and panic.

Things that could be considered major; would be troops not disappearing from bunkers and open topped vehicles when they get hit. It's probably my number one graphics niggle on two fronts, one it breaks immersion and two, if you aren't paying really close attention you may never know what happened to those guys. The passenger dots help a lot in this respect but once a vehicle is destroyed or abandoned you have no access to any of that info. Even if the bodies lay scattered on the ground, around the vehicle in the spot they were hit, would be enough (with bunkers they could just lay piled on the floor). Interior casualties such as the tank driver, of course, wouldn't need to be represented.

Fire (at this point I'd just be happy if buildings caught fire) and ground to air combat...discussed many times.

Some kind of hit decals. I don't need stuff flying off the vehicles (though I wouldn't object!) but just something that gives us an idea of the vehicle/tank being hurt/knocked out besides a couple open doors. The offset turret wasn't all that bad in CMX1 though something more would be nice.

A few more prepared fighting positions, some stacked logs maybe in a U shape, kinda like a half bunker, and a pile of debris, like chunks of concrete, something that could be placed in buildings as a hasty fortification.

I have a handful of other wishlist stuff, but overall, I think we are really close and it's a testament to BFC's hard work that my list is way shorter than it was back in CMBO times.

Mord.

[AslakH]

I checked out some vids of that game and it does look nice but I still prefer CMBN's graphics. I think it comes down to not just the superb modeling but the textures...most other games have always looked cartoony to me...like TOW and this APOS.

I also really like the way squads work in CMBN as opposed to having a bunch of single soldiers on map. It's just more appealing and I enjoy the cohesion and aesthetics of it. Of course there's room for some adjustments when it comes to placement (MG trigger man positioning being one) but over all I am really happy with it.

As far as CMX2/CMBN goes, I feel we are about 85% perfect graphics wise...there are a few minor additions or tweaks (one, that could be seen in APOS) I'd like to see. One would be having an actual animation of the guys moving an AT gun instead of them walking and it sliding. Another would be to have tank commanders both US and German use there binocs once and a while, and maybe AFVs...far as I can tell only the M10 and Priest commanders use binoculars on vehicles...the Marder Commander won't even use his.

Crews bailing out the second an explosion appears...I'd like to see at least 5 to 10 seconds before guys start pouring out of their vehicle. A lot of times they seem to exit the moment the tank has been hit....there should be some lag to represent death, confusion, shock and panic.

Things that could be considered major; would be troops not disappearing from bunkers and open topped vehicles when they get hit. It's probably my number one graphics niggle on two fronts, one it breaks immersion and two, if you aren't paying really close attention you may never know what happened to those guys. The passenger dots help a lot in this respect but once a vehicle is destroyed or abandoned you have no access to any of that info. Even if the bodies lay scattered on the ground, around the vehicle in the spot they were hit, would be enough (with bunkers they could just lay piled on the floor). Interior casualties such as the tank driver, of course, wouldn't need to be represented.

Fire (at this point I'd just be happy if buildings caught fire) and ground to air combat...discussed many times.

Some kind of hit decals. I don't need stuff flying off the vehicles (though I wouldn't object!) but just something that gives us an idea of the vehicle/tank being hurt/knocked out besides a couple open doors. The offset turret wasn't all that bad in CMX1 though something more would be nice.

A few more prepared fighting positions, some stacked logs maybe in a U shape, kinda like a half bunker, and a pile of debris, like chunks of concrete, something that could be placed in buildings as a hasty fortification.

I have a handful of other wishlist stuff, but overall, I think we are really close and it's a testament to BFC's hard work that my list is way shorter than it was back in CMBO times.

Mord.

APOS has a squad-based system, not single soldiers. But I know what you mean, TOW got my piss to a boil more than once with the insane infantry AI/Pathfinding/Combat/Cover system. Also, if a crewmember dies on/in a vehicle in APOS, he will remain there. So you can see the dead driver/marder crewmember sitting there, all bloody. I like it, but it hardly makes any difference.

CMBN has better textures, but I'd say they're pretty even when it comes to the models. The models in APOS might look better because of the dynamic lighting, and I suspect without this they'll look mediocre.

I miss decals. I love looking over the battlefield to see who killed what, etc. But without decals or the "hit arrows", it's hard to tell how it got KO'd.

It would make it a lot better, but it's already purdy good.

Gah, now I want to play CMBN, but I can't. Won't be home until Dec. 25th.

I just realised that CMx2 modules are closely modelled on the Pokémon concept: gotta catch 'em all. I have every module, and will continue to buy every single one that gets released. Damn you, BFC!

[SlowMotion]

Crews bailing out the second an explosion appears...I'd like to see at least 5 to 10 seconds before guys start pouring out of their vehicle. A lot of times they seem to exit the moment the tank has been hit....there should be some lag to represent death, confusion, shock and panic.

Yes, it would be great to have some delay before crew members exit and some randomness. All crew members are not necessarily in same shape, so it might take longer for some to exit.

[LJFHutch]

No mp kind of killed APOS for me, same with Graviteam's other one, Steel Fury? Even though I don't play much CM MP anyhow

[Wodin]

Decals is a major want of mine in CM. Infact it'stop of my want list.

[Steiner14]

As far as CMX2/CMBN goes, I feel we are about 85% perfect graphics wise...

85% without haze, without desaturating of colors depending on distance? 85% without any impression of field of depth for a tactical simulator in 2011?

What's the sense of the beauty of a tank model, if you see it somewhere in the distance but have no optical FX to develop a feeling just by looking at it, if it is behind or before that house?

Look at the map, move, see the movement, get an impression of distance, compare the distance. Sometimes even use a LOS-tool instead of the natural intuitive reception over the eyes.

Have you ever looked at black and white WWII photos? Very easy to get an impression how far away objects are.

85%? With todays GFX-cards? No way.

I'm not talking about HDR or other high-end subleties, i'm talking about one of the most important aspects on the tactical scale: the intuitive judgement of distance.

BTW: I'm no GFX expert, but IIRC z-data-calculations could be done on GFX-cards?

[LJFHutch]

I want better looking explosions (TOW has fantastic effects for instance), atmospheric fog and some extra "blending" between the "board" and the background image would be nice too.

[Mord]

85% without haze, without desaturating of colors depending on distance? 85% without any impression of field of depth for a tactical simulator in 2011?

What's the sense of the beauty of a tank model, if you see it somewhere in the distance but have no optical FX to develop a feeling just by looking at it, if it is behind or before that house?

Look at the map, move, see the movement, get an impression of distance, compare the distance. Sometimes even use a LOS-tool instead of the natural intuitive reception over the eyes.

Have you ever looked at black and white WWII photos? Very easy to get an impression how far away objects are.

85%? With todays GFX-cards? No way.

I'm not talking about HDR or other high-end subleties, i'm talking about one of the most important aspects on the tactical scale: the intuitive judgement of distance.

BTW: I'm no GFX expert, but IIRC z-data-calculations could be done on GFX-cards?

I don't have a problem judging distance in the game. If it looks close, it's close, if it looks far, it's far, just like in real life. If I want to find out just how close or far, I use the target tool because I am not a human yard stick...if I want to find out if a house is blocking it, I look...if I am not sure...I use the target tool...pretty simple...Maybe you want a tank simulator instead of CMBN?

I do think we should be able to scale the LOD though or it should work better, that's one area that is annoying but I was talking more along the lines of the units and their animations and stuff like that...So, I stick by 85%. You can claim whatever percentage you want...mine's 85.

Mord.

[Ranger33]

I never get too hung up on graphics, but if CMBN could improve graphically in only one area, it would be the lighting. It's like the battlefield is surrounded by halogen lamps. The models are excellent, the textures are okay (though Aris has shown that they can be quite a bit better), but the harsh lighting really takes away from them. That's why everything has such sharp lines and just doesn't quite blend together. Also why it's hard to see elevation in the terrain, everything is equally bright. It wasn't too bad in CMSF since it was mostly desert anyway, but in CMBN it takes away from the immersion a bit. You'll notice that everything always looks a bit better when the weather is set to overcast or at night.

The gameplay more than makes up for this of course, which is why I am in no rush to switch over to APOS after reading comments about the UI and such. Would love to see some sort of "Quick Campaign" mode that borrowed from it though. Purchase a large pool of units, split them into groups and then move them around an operational level map with some sort of objectives. Simply use the giant pile of available QB maps to make up some battlefields to fight over. Persistent damage would of course be icing on the cake. Just imagine fighting over some town multiple times until it was nothing but rubble.

/meandering rant for the night

[RockinHarry]

Re lighting: At least on my computer there´s some odd ambient lighting effects, particularly in the hours before 9 AM (game time ). It indicates that ambient lighting amount remains constant during night and day hours, leading to the effect shown in the screenies. Watch shadows and lit areas:

Do anybody else than me ever noticed this? :confused:

There´s no full moon involved btw.

[RockinHarry]

Curious -

Someone in this thread mentioned Panzer Elite. That was just about my favorite gaming experience of all time. I am an Armor Officer by profession, and that sim actually had me doing the things that I do in the real world to fight and command - at least at the PLT to CO(-) level. They are the only ones I know of that got the scale of terrain vs. time correct. "Driver, move up about three meters. Stop. Hang on, gotta check my binos. Nope, a little more driver. Gunner, scan that woodline at 11 oclock. Hang on, gotta check my map - what is this grid square? Black Six, Red One, grid 3598 looks clear, preparing to move to checkpoint A4. C'mon wingman, look at me. Okay, move out over there, where I'm pointing! I have cover from here. " I really miss that. If you were a good tank commander, you were good at that game. I assume vice versa as well.

I am not overly addicted to eye candy, but am bored with high-end production games and want to try something that has depth. Used to play Close Combat but got bored at the repetition and artificial scale. A friend of mine turned me on to CM back in CGSC in 04-05 and I thought it was just okay. Think he was showing me CMAK. What would you gents recommend I try (not into struggling w/ Russian and clunky interface) in the CM world? Is CMBN the right way to go? I don't typically play much of anything against other folks so need at least some rudimentary AI to get my fix. Any opinions appreciated.

Oh, and yes, this post is off topic and my first on this forum. Apologies to admin, feel free to delete it, move it, etc...

Might try ARMA2 and it´s i44 western front mod. Then there´s Liberation 44 on the horizon, which is also based on ARMA2 game engine. Beside that there not much to recommend if you´re coming from Panzer Elite school and more into (tank) simulators. So far, CMBN is the best combined arms simulation game around and surely will improve much more over time.

[Destraex1]

Do you want an FPS experience or a RTS style game?

Iron Front is coming out soon for ARMA2 and is a paid addon. I cannot immagine tank combat is modelled that well in it either.

But for now RO2 has some pretty immersive tank combat. I am not saying it is the most realistic, but some of the features in tank it models are the best I have seen.

It is of course a much faster paced game than ARMA. But I have never really found ARMA vehicle combat

to be very immersive or realistic.

Steel Beasts Pro PE is the pinnacle however if you want armoured combat. It is what a lot of armies use for training and includes things like recovery vehicles.

Steel Beasts is your panzer elite of today. It is light years ahead of anything else I know of.

Has crunchies in it too which are done reasonably well for a tank sim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4muMz6usAFg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy8qdN6erMs&feature=related

Of course as you say their is also russian interface in a lot of games.... a new tank game that has russian interface is

there is steel fury and tiger vs t34.... but again russian interface. There is a new russian interface game too which looked good by graviteam called Steel Armor:Blaze of War

If you want close combat 3D with the best features of the earlier combat mission games then this is the right game for you.

RO2 mKIV - of course RO2 is a multiplayer centric game. So sounds like you may not be at home here.

[Destraex1]

You can change ammunition types and when a crew member dies their is an actual in tank animation of your when you attempt to change positions to man the dead mans chair.

[Steiner14]

I don't have a problem judging distance in the game. If it looks close, it's close, if it looks far, it's far, just like in real life.

No, you judge because of the varying size (and the reduced texture quality), not because of natural field of depth effects.

Play with fog and you maybe will understand what i'm talking about. Or look at games that have FoD FX.

You could also close one eye and try to analyze what you see, when looking around in real life if you refuse to understand what i'm talking about.

Because a monitor is only 2D, the FoD FXs should even be exaggerated to the real ones, to compensate for the 2D projection.

If I want to find out just how close or far, I use the target tool because I am not a human yard stick...

I have explained exactly that as the consequences of no field of depth FXs and you come up and praise the workaround...

One can only hope, that developers are more critical about their products than the fanbois...

[Mord]

No, you judge because of the varying size (and the reduced texture quality), not because of natural field of depth effects.

Play with fog and you maybe will understand what i'm talking about. Or look at games that have FoD FX.

You could also close one eye and try to analyze what you see, when looking around in real life if you refuse to understand what i'm talking about.

Because a monitor is only 2D, the FoD FXs should even be exaggerated to the real ones, to compensate for the 2D projection.

I have explained exactly that as the consequences of no field of depth FXs and you come up and praise the workaround...

One can only hope, that developers are more critical about their products than the fanbois...

It's not that I "refuse" to understand...it's that your particular bitch makes no sense. I don't have that problem when playing yet you take it as a personal insult to your existence. But yeah, I know (WE ALL know)...anybody that disagrees with you is a raving fanboy...so, I guess anybody that disagrees with me...is a dick.

Mord.

[Steiner14]

Try to use arguments instead fleeing to ad hominem attacks.

[Mord]

Irony...it's what's for breakfast...

Mord.

[AslakH]

'Sup with the flame war?

Chillax, brosefs!

Also, judging distance? In the game? For landscaping?

[AslakH]

Do you want an FPS experience or a RTS style game?

Iron Front is coming out soon for ARMA2 and is a paid addon. I cannot immagine tank combat is modelled that well in it either.

But for now RO2 has some pretty immersive tank combat. I am not saying it is the most realistic, but some of the features in tank it models are the best I have seen.

It is of course a much faster paced game than ARMA. But I have never really found ARMA vehicle combat

to be very immersive or realistic.

Steel Beasts Pro PE is the pinnacle however if you want armoured combat. It is what a lot of armies use for training and includes things like recovery vehicles.

Steel Beasts is your panzer elite of today. It is light years ahead of anything else I know of.

Has crunchies in it too which are done reasonably well for a tank sim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4muMz6usAFg&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy8qdN6erMs&feature=related

Of course as you say their is also russian interface in a lot of games.... a new tank game that has russian interface is

there is steel fury and tiger vs t34.... but again russian interface. There is a new russian interface game too which looked good by graviteam called Steel Armor:Blaze of War

If you want close combat 3D with the best features of the earlier combat mission games then this is the right game for you.

RO2 mKIV - of course RO2 is a multiplayer centric game. So sounds like you may not be at home here.

I have to say that the "tank combat" in RO2 sucked. It's just another FPS with vehicles. Kinda like BF3.

Might be the maps, or perhaps it is the obvious hit points system?

I bought Steel Armor last week. I've had fun with it, but the AI sucks harder than ever. It's like they wanted to make a tank sim, but didn't really care. Clunky controls, clunky gameplay, infantry is even worse than in Steel Fury/AP/APOS. You'll run out of ammo before you get knocked out, because the AI is so retarded. Weapons systems seem under researched as well (never ever use ATGMs, they are one-shot weapons and nothing hits on the first shot in SA, and it'll just get KO'd because it only has the one rocket, after that it'll draw fire and costs resources.).

Tiger vs. T-34 is a linear arcade-ish game with painfully bad effects and graphics for such a recent game.

Steel Beasts, now there's a tank sim! Too expensive for me, though. Do you know if it still has a good MP community?

[Guest]

I have explained exactly that as the consequences of no field of depth FXs and you come up and praise the workaround...

One can only hope, that developers are more critical about their products than the fanbois...

Trying to stifle honest questioning of your idea or thought by claiming the poster in question would defend anything we did is... spurious. Knocking around your fellow forum-goers who think it wouldn't be useful isn't a great way to sell your ideas, either. Just have a good honest argument.

I understand both the mechanics and code behind a DoF effect. I think if you're using it to judge distance, there are better tools at your disposal, since it tends to be rather coarse (and I'm assuming you don't want bokeh littering everything that might be out of focus, yeah?). I do think DoF would a) look nice and potentially be useful. You're definitely not the first to suggest it.

It's not that I "refuse" to understand...it's that your particular bitch makes no sense. I don't have that problem when playing yet you take it as a personal insult to your existence. But yeah, I know (WE ALL know)...anybody that disagrees with you is a raving fanboy...so, I guess anybody that disagrees with me...is a dick.

Yeah, let's keep this sort of thing out of the forums, shall we? The "good honest argument" thing again. Two ad hominem attacks don't make a right, etc.