poesel

Just a bit... Since the Pumas won't be repaired until April '23, we will have to use Marders for our NATO obligations. Now you know why we don't give them to Ukraine.
If you needed to know how ****ed up the Bundeswehr is - now you do.

Just a bit... Since the Pumas won't be repaired until April '23, we will have to use Marders for our NATO obligations. Now you know why we don't give them to Ukraine.
If you needed to know how ****ed up the Bundeswehr is - now you do.

You are right. It was meant ironical.  We have more than the 18 Marders in store than we need to replace the Pumas.
With the Austrians, I'm not so sure
Again, you are totally right. Ukraine is defending the rest of Europe against the Russians, and we should be much more grateful for that.
But this is (as everything) a thing of subjective perception. Many Germans share my view of things, but also many don't. We are split roughly in half over this, and that is reflected in the behavior of our politicians, who also don't have a clear path.
This is a bit cynical, but winter might help here. Stories about freezing children or old people in Ukraine seem to crop up more and more in the mass media. This might help to bring over those in camp caution.

You are right. It was meant ironical.  We have more than the 18 Marders in store than we need to replace the Pumas.
With the Austrians, I'm not so sure
Again, you are totally right. Ukraine is defending the rest of Europe against the Russians, and we should be much more grateful for that.
But this is (as everything) a thing of subjective perception. Many Germans share my view of things, but also many don't. We are split roughly in half over this, and that is reflected in the behavior of our politicians, who also don't have a clear path.
This is a bit cynical, but winter might help here. Stories about freezing children or old people in Ukraine seem to crop up more and more in the mass media. This might help to bring over those in camp caution.

Just a bit... Since the Pumas won't be repaired until April '23, we will have to use Marders for our NATO obligations. Now you know why we don't give them to Ukraine.
If you needed to know how ****ed up the Bundeswehr is - now you do.

This is only a partial truth. Marders in storage of private firms are not in use of the Bundeswehr, yet cannot be sold to Ukraine because of political decisions. Or Leo1s to be sold by other countries, who lack the permission by whom?
It is a fair question to ask the people in charge, who would the Bundeswehr defend against? France? New Austria-Hungaria? Any and all military equipment with the intend of keeping Europe peaceful has the highest marginal use in Ukraine right now where it would be able to put Russias military back decades, and safe Ukrainian lifes instead of dusting and rusting.
NATO obligations are a nice throwaway line to say its not in the hands of the politicans, who for the last how many decades couldnt care less about NATO obligations of >2% GDP, 30days of ammo storage, actually working vehicles,... but it sure is a nice excuse right now. The same one that was used for the Dingos, who then suddenly could be sent quite easily (even though the Bundeswehr does not have a surplus..) after enough political pressure was felt.

Rheinmetall will start a production line for 20-35 mm ammunition in Germany. That includes ammo for the Gepard. Production will start in July '23.
https://www.zdf.de/nachrichten/wirtschaft/rheinmetall-munition-ukraine-krieg-russland-100.html#xtor=CS5-62

I want to build on this and hit a cancerous myth that is hijacking this board - the Ukrainian nuclear backstory myth.  Frankly it belongs to be in the outer darkness with the Bio Black Sites.  I also think it is dangerously skewing the views of some members and feeding into some really unhealthy narratives that are counter-productive and likely going to sour things going forward.
So looking this up the myth goes like this:
Back in the mid 90s Ukraine had a big suite of nuclear weapons it inherited from the break up of the Soviet Union.  Rather than hold onto them and being able to provide deterrence to Russian aggression almost 30 years later - Ukraine graciously decided to divest them back to Russia with the brotherly love of all mankind in their hearts.  The US and other nations then promised on a stack of Bibles and pictures of Baby Jesus that should any threat befall Ukraine, they would come riding over the hills like the Riders of Rohan and smote the threat with their mighty hands.  In 2014 - Russia did some shenanigan's in Donbas and Crimea, of which we all know and love, but the West yawned and went "well, are those really threats or is this kind of an internal issue?"  Poor Ukraine struggled on by itself to hold off the rabid Russian Bear until 2022 when it rolled its mangy a$$ over the border.  Ukraine is now calling in that nuclear favour...it is owed and "demands" the US and West honor its obligations and basically give Ukraine whatever it wants, whenever it wants because they gave up the nukes.  Further it is the US and West's fault for this war in the first place because we did not smite Russia back in 2014, so pay up and be quick about it. 
I get the impulse and given Ukraine's position it makes sense.  However, I would offer that "guilt, shame and demands" may not be the best way to go to guarantor the continued Western support Ukraine is going to need for about a decade after this war, let alone out the back end of next year.  But first lets beat up on that myth:
1.   Those nukes were nearly useless to Ukraine as deterrence towards Russia without significant cost and risks.  Yes there were a lot of nuclear weapons but they had never been given over to Ukrainian control, they were housed in Ukraine but Russian controlled the whole time.  Further, they were long range ballistic systems which were nearly useless at the tactical ranges Ukraine needed to deter Russian threats:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction.  Ukraine was a fledging ex-Soviet state and was hardly rolling in cash, so the option to re-tool those weapons was severely limited by resources.  Finally, if Ukraine had said "screw you, we are keeping them and re-tooling them" they would have seen heavy sanctions and possible military action from Russia or the West because loose nukes makes everyone really nervous.
2.  Ukraine was paid to lose the nukes, and freely took the money.  Ukrainian parliament voted overwhelmingly "(301-8)" to take the payoff and get rid of the the things.  This was not arm twisting or coercion, it was opportunism: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/12/05/why-care-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/.  And smart opportunism for that matter because at the time they were more trouble than they were worth.
3.  The famous "security guarantees".  Promises of security for Ukraine.  Not even close.  These were assurances, which is diplomatic speak for "mayhaps", and Ukraine knew it.  The Budapest Memo is not a security guarantee or collective security agreement, not even close.  https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/12/05/why-care-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/  It is a pretty vague agreement that the big powers would not pound on the small powers if they gave up their nukes.  Also the only security resolution mechanism was the UNSC, which of course was presided over by the big powers. Ukraine is a sovereign state and had its big boy pants on when it signed this thing and knew it was tying its security on the UN Charter - https://www.icanw.org/faq_on_ukraine_and_nuclear_weapons.  Which is great so long as a UNSC nation isn't the one to violate the freakin thing.
The US did promise to assist Ukraine should their sovereignty be threatened but the details of that assistance were never made concrete.  Frankly, given the assistance post-2014 and now I think the US is living up to its end of the agreement.
So as far as legal obligation, there is not one, never was. Ukraine took the money and avoided becoming a pariah by trying to become a nuclear power.  The US and West have actually delivered on assistance, to the point that Ukraine is winning this war.  Further there is absolutely zero obligation to assist Ukraine in its reconstruction after this war.  Here we are relying entirely on the good will and self-interests of the West, which is shaky ground on a good day.
What is true is the moral obligation.  How the EU got itself upside down on this whole Russian energy thing is beyond be, especially after 2014.  Hell Europe is still buying Russian oil: https://oilprice.com/Energy/Energy-General/Europe-Is-Buying-All-The-Russian-Oil-It-Can-Before-Banning-It.html.  So ya, we definitely did not walk the walk on defending democracy or human rights in Ukraine against an obvious threat...we took the payoff.  But before anyone jumps on that one...big.boy.pants.time.  That is how the world works, as crappy and unfair as it is.  We have been doing business with dictators and autocrats all over the world - Saudi Arabia looking at you - and turned a lot of blind eyes in many countries.  Ukraine is getting the platinum response, it is about as good as it gets for an outside nation to be honest and if there is a shift in the political winds it could be cut off pretty quick.
So "DEMAND" all you like; however, you are not entitled beyond the good will of the West and a self-interest need to ensure the global order holds against Russian aggression. You want to come on this forum and conduct a regular routine of western bashing - Germany is literally on a weekly clock - just know you are doing service to Russian interests when you do.  You want to get emotional, totally understandable but 1) do not create or support mis/dis information in doing so, it is counter to everything we try to do here and 2) hold your own politicians to account when this is over, Ukraine has a obligation to itself and the decisions that led to this are not all on the West, and 3) remember that guilt and shame is not your best play here.
Let me finish by perhaps expanding on the Western point of view - well US/5EYES as I cannot say I am privy to the entire western bloc.  We are exhausted.  30 years of cat herding and dealing with everyone else's problems has not been rewarding.  Sure we got the power and money, but for the love of gawd the endless whining and biting has really taken a shine off the whole thing.  Terrorism, intra-state wars, insurgencies and now Russia is being a total dick and pushing us to the edge.  There is a sentiment in the western power bases that we are sick of the rest of the world and its bullsh#t.  Tired of spending endless streams of money and people on countries we wouldn't look for on a map, time zones away. 
Then there is the pandemic: the US lost nearly 1.1 million people, and with excess deaths that number could be over 2 million - https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#datatracker-home. https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm
And at the end of all that we get a global economic recession in the making.  So ya, snapping your fingers and waiving a Budapest Memo in our faces is likely to backfire really quickly.  The US is incredibly divided right now, and frankly so is Canada as a result of COVID impacts.  Good will for Ukraine is solid and damned well better hold; however, it is not guaranteed in the least.  So no, you need not grovel or "by your leave here" but maybe just try and remember who is on your side in this thing and sometimes we can disagree and even say "no" without going all millennial.
This thread stood up for reality when everyone thought we should get ready to bail and run on Ukraine -just this week I heard a retired Canadian 3-star say "there is no way Ukraine can secure victory in this conflict".  We stood against the crazy conspiracy theories on it all being Ukraine's fault.  We stood against mainstream "big money" analysist when they wrote the UA off.  And we should stand for the truth even when we don't like it.  If we can't do that then we should just close up this thread and we can all go to the Reddit threads of our choice and bask in those echo chambers of ignorance.

The rather infuriating thought is that IF we started in May or April, given 6-12 months minimum needed for new armored/mech unit to be actually useful, as outlined by The_Capt, we'd be almost there now. Reactive vs. proactive approach, with all the benefits of the latter.
It will be even more infuriating when we'll be repeating exactly the same regret 6 months from now.

Not Poles nor their representatives, unfortunatelly- only PiS MP's voting into vacuum. It would be nice if KI would provide readers with this minor detail how it was voted. A tragic bill indeed- entire opposition simply left the chamber, outraged by breaking initiall compromise over not-including this absurd clause (initiall project would had 99% of votes in Sejm and would be firm, non-partisan response to Russia). Of course, Smoleńsk sectarians pushed the vote nonetheless, even against silent majority in PiS who know perfectly well all talks about "murder" is pure bull****.
Show you the way how Kaczyński handles state affairs, but here we are.

Rheinmetall is doing quite well, and of course they can sell out-country. They just need a permit. But the wellbeing of Rheinmetall is not an important issue for the chancellor - weapons make only a tiny percentage of our exports.
What the fuss is about the Marders and Leo1s I don't understand. It's 70s tech and could be rebranded as 'old' or 'light tank by current standards' (in the case of the Leo1). But they don't want to.
Ukraine should really rather spend their energy on pestering the UK or France for a handful of halfway modern tanks. If they get delivered or even promised, it would be very, very, very hard for the chancellor to paddle back behind his 'the others don't, why should we?' posture.
IMHO the Leo1 would make much more sense for the UA. A lighter tank on par in weight with the T-72. Older but simpler for maintenance. Less armor, yes, but haven't we just learned that armor doesn't help much currently anyway?
We have some in stock, and Greece even has more in use. They would part with them happily for Leo2s. Would also send a nice sign to Turkey. Win-win.

I've said it several times, but I will repeat it as often as necessary: this is all about domestic policy. There is a strong group of 'weapon exports are bad always no matter what' in the party of the chancellor. He's not doing that well in the polls, so he won't aggravate this group - unless someone else exports modern, heavy tanks first OR it is done in a group thing (EU or NATO).
A PzH is not at the front. Low chance of being destroyed or, worse, being captured. The Russians would loooove to parade a German tank over the Red Square. That would 24/7 in Russian TV. Not a win for a German politician.
Also, a PzH is not a tank... yeah.

I've said it several times, but I will repeat it as often as necessary: this is all about domestic policy. There is a strong group of 'weapon exports are bad always no matter what' in the party of the chancellor. He's not doing that well in the polls, so he won't aggravate this group - unless someone else exports modern, heavy tanks first OR it is done in a group thing (EU or NATO).
A PzH is not at the front. Low chance of being destroyed or, worse, being captured. The Russians would loooove to parade a German tank over the Red Square. That would 24/7 in Russian TV. Not a win for a German politician.
Also, a PzH is not a tank... yeah.

I've said it several times, but I will repeat it as often as necessary: this is all about domestic policy. There is a strong group of 'weapon exports are bad always no matter what' in the party of the chancellor. He's not doing that well in the polls, so he won't aggravate this group - unless someone else exports modern, heavy tanks first OR it is done in a group thing (EU or NATO).
A PzH is not at the front. Low chance of being destroyed or, worse, being captured. The Russians would loooove to parade a German tank over the Red Square. That would 24/7 in Russian TV. Not a win for a German politician.
Also, a PzH is not a tank... yeah.

Not enough. Neither tanks, nor especially IFVs and APCs. In that time, when hundreds of M113, older versions of M2 and Murders just stand useless under sky in that time when western politics 9 months are thinking will Russia nuke them for M2 and Leo or not. 
If West would give us weapon with the same zeal as it forced us to disarm in 90th for paper security guaranties...

You are very right here. I was always wondering why your ambassadors weren't playing that card.
In public use, the 'Soviets' were always 'Russians'. So Russia has inherited all the guilt we have from WWII, but neither has Belarus nor Ukraine. That is a piece of history that is not well known here.
A little bit of reframing would have gone a long way to gain more public support. A missed chance, IMHO.
Russia had 2.3% of our foreign trade in '21 and the number was already declining. So not a big market, but neither unimportant.
Being so dependent on Russian oil & gas was a mixture of stupidity and greed. It could have been avoided, and now we pay for it.
The neglect of Ukraine goes together with the general neglect of Germany towards eastern European countries, nothing special, unfortunately. That stems from the time of the reunification. Eastern Germany was well integrated in the East, but was more or less disposed of. Western Germany was always looking West, and that attitude survived until now.
No, that's not it. The Russian market is dead for the foreseeable future.
The real reason is purely domestic policy. There are still a lot of people who think that delivering weapons is always a bad thing and will lead to more suffering (not my opinion). Unfortunately, this feeling is especially strong in the supporters of the chancellors party. He cannot risk the support of those people.
There will be no delivery of tanks from Germany unless there is a strong push from other European/NATO countries to deliver them together. And Germany will be the last to jump on that train, and only if it is unavoidable.
If you want German tanks, get some from the French, the UK, the USA first. Sorry, but that is how it is.

Because different countries have different contexts.
Do PzH2000 suck? What about those Gepards - are they worthless? Or the other 12B euros that Germany has provided? None of it is good enough until you get the specific toy you have a temporary hardon for?
Why arent you moaning that the US hasn't given you a Nimitz, or a satellite, or a wing of B-52s?

First, I need to explain, who these guys are. A "Reichsbürger" (translates to 'citizen of the (Kaiser)Reich') is someone who does deny the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany. Instead, they believe that the Kaiserreich still exists. There's some quite funny legalese reasoning to explain this.
They wanted to topple the government and even had some old royal descendant who would then become Kaiser(?).
There is no connection to the Reichstag which is just the building of the parliament.
The round-up is the biggest ever here, even bigger than the ones we had against the left-wing terrorists in the 70s. It is of course all over the news here.
 
How dangerous is this group? Depends on the scope.
As a group to Germany itself, not so much. They have no backing in the population, and their plans are just delusional.
As individuals who cause acts of terrorism, more likely. They had the skills and the means.
The whole thing is bizarre, but unfortunately not the funny kind. I'm very happy that the state caught this group before something happened.
 

As Butschi mentioned, many Germans are in favor of it, including many members and portions of the ruling coalition in the German government. The context of the Kubela's statement must be placed alongside the statement of the head of the German parliament defense committee, https://www.yahoo.com/now/u-supports-transfer-german-leopard-175300192.html
who reported that the U.S is ready to support Germany in supplying western tanks to Ukraine. When I refer to Putin betting on Western support for Ukraine waning, and Ukraine being left to deal with a stalemate and/or forced into unfavorable peace treaties, that belief is fuelled by western reluctance in supplying Ukraine.
Legality or no legality, in my opinion, the West, NATO, Europe has been given a lifeline via the Ukrainians and their resistance, in that the destruction of the Russian military is occurring in Ukraine, with absolutely no burden on any of NATO in terms of lives, something that every Western nation is keenly vulnerable to. (And I won't look a gift in the mouth, if we contemplate the scenario where Putin had successfully taken Ukraine, the chances of NATO vs Russia increase greatly down the line)(resistance by no means is forever, as the Ukrainian SSR represents, and you know, as a citizen of the U.S, I am grateful not to have to think of a future where Russia, empowered with Ukraine, challenges in the Baltics with hybrid warfare and internal discord in the West. Very grateful.)
But adversely, that means eastern Ukraine is turned into a devastated land, and the lives of Ukrainian civilians and military are killed every moment that goes by.
As the RUSI report alludes to, casualty rates for Ukrainian personnel are high. Manpower is essential, especially the trained and experienced personnel, anything that can preserve them best serves Ukraine and the West in successfully defeating Russia.
Western tanks represent a escalation, but also represent a challenge to Putin, who mind you, has chosen escalation, over and over again. If the goal of NATO support in Ukraine is to force the liberation of all Ukrainian lands, by any means possible, considering Putin has time and time indicated he feels that the West will be bored of supporting Ukraine, tired of missing cheap Russian energy, and fundamentally weak to sacrifice anything for Ukraine, it is essential for Putin to seriously consider the preservation of his military and relations repaired with the West via the withdrawal of all Russian forces back into Russia.
That Putin has doubled down, that he has annexed parts of Ukraine, represents that he continues to think western support will fade and he will succeed.
And yes, the goal of the west is not merely to restore borders to pre-invasion, but to force a loss territorially for Russia, who in invading, has targeted the entire international order, the west's dominance and ethical position. failure to punish, represents a death knell for any state deciding to side with the west in the future. (What about military dominance? Surely we can just bomb our competition? nope, if sovereign states can no longer be assured that they remain whole via the enforcement of the international order, the result will be nuclear proliferation and rearmament and instead of one or two nuclear armed states, we will have plenty more, with all the hellish implications it results in)(western influence is utterly falling apart worldwide, failure to uphold the rules of the international order via the restoration of the full wholeness of Ukraine will only signal the full extent of that weakness)
And, lives lost, equipment lost, surely Putin and co gives a damn? No, I don't think so. He thinks not in lives, but in money and land. Lives, only insofar as resources. As shown by Iran, he can get replacement equipment from friendly states. If we let him cause a stalemate in Ukraine, that will only enbolden the rest like China to start supporting Russia and openly challenge the West. That, in all measures, we need to avoid.
I think there's a lot of "Russia is defeated" going around, but I'm not so sure we can count Russia out. Clearly, Putin is determined to escalate due to western weakness. We must match him in order to illustrate our resolve. We need to make clear he should strongly consider the offers on the table right now. We are not doing that in my opinion.

When Putin falls, Lukashenko will switch sides as fast as lightning. He will try to broker a deal for him and his cronies for a get-out-of-jail card for giving over Belarus peacefully to the opposition.
Luka is a very, very good politician. Someone of lesser skill would have been ousted long ago. So I guess he will try everything to avoid sinking together with his regime.
For that purpose, he needs to stay out of anything 'unforgivable' by the West. Which means that Belarus will not attack Ukraine because that would tie him to Putin forever.

Cool. Extra-judicial assassinations of random and irrelevant people we dont like. Long term peace /definitely/ lies down that road.

Sorry for not being present for some time (had, and actually still have, issues in IRL).
The execution video is an LDPR fake. It's an LDPR-style execution - these morons have no idea how actual Soviet-based militaries carry out any types of executions, so they imitate their own mob-like executions.
Apart from that - due to vastly enhanced UKR anti-drone defenses, actual RU drone operators stopped flying like this in August. But here RU operator literally flying over UKR heads for some time, risking extremely valuable asset, just to watch bunch of unimportant UKR troops doing some unimportant stuff. 
Go home, Ivan, you are too drunk to make believable fakes. 
Bakhmut's situation is gradually deteriorating, but it is far from grave. It's the standard RU bragging that we're all used to hearing.
In the north, after months of battering Yakovlivka village (northeast of Soledar), RU eventually flattened it, and it appears UKR defenders abandoned it. It means the Northen pincer is now sort of free and moving. Except that it does not give RU much - without Soledar, they are still a long way from surrounding Bukhmut.
After loss at the Industrial Zone, RU decided to shift the axis of assault to Pidhorne village on the outskirts of Bukhmut (northern outskirts of Bukhmut, between Bukhmut and Soledar). Important village, but aside from several talkes, I have yet to come across credible information, implying that things are not going well for RU there.
The Southern pincer is the most alarming. There are no significant UKR defenses there, so RU is gradually grinding toward Ivanivka. They're probing Klishiivka, the last settlement before Ivanivka. That's bad, but the first part of the Battle of the Bulge was also bad. Essentially, we are waiting a UKR counter-attack aimed at destroying the Southern pincer. Question is how far UKR will let RU penetrate. 
Bukhmut itself is not in grave danger, and there is no threat of it collapsing (yet). Fighting is taking place at the outer defenses, and it is not yet dangerous.

An article (in Ukrainian) how Ukrainian volunteers-engineers from Respeechers and i3 Engineering companies and programmers, serving in 125th TD Brigade, created AI warning system ZVOOK (from UKR. "zvuk" -  "sound"). This system allows to complement possibilities of Air Defense radars to detect approaching missiles and kamikadze drones - it's sound sensors listen the air, select suspicious sound, AI analyzes it and if the signal is matches to threat sound, it transmits alarm via cell phones towers to Air Defense datacenters. By the placement of activated sensor,  AD can decide to react on that direction. 
This system had been developing four months and was set up immediately after AI could detect true signal at 50/50 level - because we had a lack of radar covering - on the meeting develppers with Lviv oblast administration, representatives of cell phone operators and militaries they got permission to launch the first trial systems. Gradually engineers enchanced sound mirrors, electronics and could learn AI to work almost without mistakes. Interesting, that most problematic was to learn AI to differ a sound of cruise missile from cows mooing.
In present time 40 ZVOOK sensors already installed on more critical directions, but developers say there are need 600 sensors throughout all country in several echelones to be effective complement of radars. In plans of developers - to make the system capable to determine a coordinates, speed and course of target. Now it can determinate approximately a bearing and elevation angle. Also developers want to scale the project and turn it in future to commercial product.
 https://www.epravda.com.ua/publications/2022/11/28/694314/
 ZVOOK sensor on cell phone tower

And "prototype" of ZVOOK - Dutch soldier of 30th years with acoustic system. But now human ears and brain substituted with electronic and AI
 

First, I need to explain, who these guys are. A "Reichsbürger" (translates to 'citizen of the (Kaiser)Reich') is someone who does deny the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany. Instead, they believe that the Kaiserreich still exists. There's some quite funny legalese reasoning to explain this.
They wanted to topple the government and even had some old royal descendant who would then become Kaiser(?).
There is no connection to the Reichstag which is just the building of the parliament.
The round-up is the biggest ever here, even bigger than the ones we had against the left-wing terrorists in the 70s. It is of course all over the news here.
 
How dangerous is this group? Depends on the scope.
As a group to Germany itself, not so much. They have no backing in the population, and their plans are just delusional.
As individuals who cause acts of terrorism, more likely. They had the skills and the means.
The whole thing is bizarre, but unfortunately not the funny kind. I'm very happy that the state caught this group before something happened.
 

First, I need to explain, who these guys are. A "Reichsbürger" (translates to 'citizen of the (Kaiser)Reich') is someone who does deny the existence of the Federal Republic of Germany. Instead, they believe that the Kaiserreich still exists. There's some quite funny legalese reasoning to explain this.
They wanted to topple the government and even had some old royal descendant who would then become Kaiser(?).
There is no connection to the Reichstag which is just the building of the parliament.
The round-up is the biggest ever here, even bigger than the ones we had against the left-wing terrorists in the 70s. It is of course all over the news here.
 
How dangerous is this group? Depends on the scope.
As a group to Germany itself, not so much. They have no backing in the population, and their plans are just delusional.
As individuals who cause acts of terrorism, more likely. They had the skills and the means.
The whole thing is bizarre, but unfortunately not the funny kind. I'm very happy that the state caught this group before something happened.