Tank Hunter

Yes indeed, I was afraid I would get spotted and shot to pieces but since the tank was terrorizing my troops further up the hill I figured I would take a chance and see what happens. THat's why I did it with two different AT teams so my chance of success would be bigger. As it turned out the tank did not spot any of them even when they practically almost runned over two of my pixeltruppen. There were however no enemy soliders around that could relay the information over to the tank.. Could be the answer why it played out so well.

Agree the end result is as expected. Tank disabled, the issue is why didn't they spot it before ending up 2m from it?

Sorry for the size of the images. Here is another try. As you can see in the picture above an AT unit is located only few meters to the left of an enemy tank with another AT unit approaching in the background. I knew there was a tank up on the hill so I sent out two AT teams to hunt it down. The tank reversed during the same turn as my AT teams were advancing and the turn ended up as shown in the picture. The problem is that those two standing next to the tank could not see it as shown in the picture below when I selected them to give them fire command. The AT team coming from foot of the hill was however seeing the tank. Both AT teams came from the same platoon. None had been engaged yet so their morale was good. During the next turn the closest AT team spotted the tank and fired a panzer faust which made the crew abandon the tank. As you can see in the picture above the crew abandoned in fairly good order and shot down one of the AT men. I understand the logic behind spotting and that it is cycled. I would however like to have that cycle continue even in order phase so I can provide proper orders. Now I could not give any orders since they did not see any tank so I had to hope that they would fire first during the replay phase. The second thing is the spotting in general. This unit was advancing against the tank while the tank was reversing towards them. Why did they not spot the tank from distance while it was reversing. There were no obstacles in the way. TAC-AI should have stopped them and allowed them to fire the faust before reaching their movement destination. As it stands now the soldiers will apparently move at all cost until they reach end destination. Only then will they start looking for targets. In this case most logical action would have been to engage the tank before reaching their end destination. The question is why did they not spot a tank that almost runned them over? The the 3rd issue is of course the superman crew that evacuates a tank under heavy AT-fire in good order and starts shooting at enemy soldiers around, but we all are familliar with this behaviour arent we?. Please don't see this as bashing. I love the game, I just want to bring up some issues that may help BF develop even better games and logics.

I'm playing a QB against AI, an enemy tank is messing with my Stugs and I decide to detach two AT groups from two squads that are behind the enemy tank and close the distance so I can get a clean shot. I order both AT groups to advance quickly from behind. At the same time the enemy tank reverses ending up very close to one of my AT teams. See picture 1. The strange thing is that my AT team doesn't see the tank!! See picture 2, when I select the team the tank dissapears. How can this be possible? The tank is only few meters away. My second AT team that is further down the slope has however a clean view of the tank?! During the next turn the AT team that is further down the slope opens up with AT rifle grenades, few seconds later the blind soldiers finally spot the tank and hit the tank with the shreck. Then comes the heroic tank crew and guns down one of the men. Picture 3. =( How can this be possible?

You're right. It must have been blanks. There is some rocking in your video which is in line with the video showing Soviet tanks firing.

Some footage showing Tigers firing The tank is steady as a rock. Here is a M1A2 firing Steady also Here you can see some Soviet tanks firing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DA8uXzxLqx0&feature=related They actually do rock somewhat. Especially when on the move..

Eventually I think this is a must. An attached scripting language that allows designers to define set of rules that are executed when certain conditions are met. Other games have utilized scripts with pretty good results and I think same system would do fine in CM. This should of course be combined with improved TAC AI so that it can execute basic orders properly. For example if the AI issues a move order for whole company through a gap and a whole squad gets shot down to pieces while moving then the rest of the company should stop and find another way, right now all of them will run through the same gap acting as brain dead zombies.

So how should it look like? Base Game US Army vs Soviet Forces Period 1985-1990? Expansion 1 Germany & UK East Germany & Poland Expansion 2 France/Belgium/Netherlands Czheckoslovakia/Hungary/Romania All East European Countries were using more or less same equip so it should be fairly easy to create their armies.

OK Here is some more background. Wilson’s first combat day was on 26th July 1944 right after the initial bombardment of the allied planes that caused significant friendly losses. As the order came Wilson advanced with his 2nd Plt only to discover the tremendous devastating power of the preceding bombardment. Dead from both sides were lying around some covered half way with dirt. Dead bloated cows with their legs pointing up in the skies were lying everywhere in the fields. Their first village, Saint Gilles was lying just ahead of them. It was a small village at a crossroad. (Around 30 buildings). Wilson and his men went in straight for the crossroads moving in on each side of the road in to the village. As he arrived Wilson was on the left side of the road leaning against a high stone wall. The first building was just in front of him not more than 10 meters away from the wall’s end. Suddenly a grenade detonated inside the first house and Wilson hit the ground. As he looked up a German Mark IV tank turned into the street and was heading straight for him. A Sherman tank that was following Wilson and his men starting to exchange fire with the German tank. The Sherman started to reverse but it kept firing as it was reversing seeking for cover. This left Wilson alone in-between the tanks. Wilson was at this time lying flat and just observing the tank fight. Each tank fired as fast as it could since the distance between them was less than 100 m. The Mark IV tank continued to fire as it was advancing forward. Both tanks either continued to miss each other at this short distance or the rounds were bouncing off. Finally after an exchange of half a dozen of projectiles the Mark IV tank bursted into the flames. Two Germans crawled out but they were both cut down by MG-fire from the Sherman tank. So what kind of conclusion can we draw from this? Half of dozen shots were fired? – that would account for 5-6 fired shots. Let’s say 3 on each side. All frontal. That would mean that the Sherman either missed or failed to penetrate PZ IV’s armor at a range of < 100m! For the German tank it’s even worse since up to 3 shots either missed or failed to penetrate. Can similar thing be achieved in CMBN? I doubt it.. Not at that range. Both tanks were in movement, the Sherman moving back and the Mark IV forward. Since both of them were on the same road one could argue that targeting conditions were pretty much OK for both sides. The distance between them remained roughly the same and both most likely didn’t have to rotate the turrets that much between each shot. So why did it take that many rounds before penetration/hit was achieved? Just lack of luck or were these tank crews maybe so green that they hardly knew how to use their machines? Was it maybe the movement of the tank that after all affected their targeting performance?

I just read something interesting in a book called If you survive by George Wilson. For those that are not familiar about the book it's a personal account of an American officer from Saint Lo fighting all the way to Ardennes offensive. During his first combat he witnesses a tank duel between a Sherman and Pz IV. The tanks were only separated by 100 m yet both sides had difficulties hitting each other. It took a half a dozen of rounds before the Pz IV bursted up in flames. According to the writer most of the rounds either missed or bounced off. The tanks were also partially in movement during the engagement. At 100m in CMBN it would have been first shot = instant kill. From his description one could argue that hitting probabilities are way off in CMBN. This may have been a freak occasion where both crews were pretty green and nervous who knows..

I agree. Since modules are supposed to be content only then one would imagine that proper models and textures with variation is something to expect when you buy new armies. From what I'm seeing and hearing that may not be the case..

I got it too yesterday and yeah it's fun since it's fast paced. If you want a quick fix of action it's quite good but if you want realism and reward for thinking then CM is the way to go. I love CM and what it provides. With that said it still needs to evolve and go towards modern graphics. I agree that work should be done on realism rather than looks but all the realism under the hood will not help you unless you can see that with your own eyes and hear it with you own ears. Ocasionally burning tank with screeming crew members jumping out on fire will definately immerse you into the battle rather than just some off animation where they jump out like it is some kind of excercise.

Yeah looks good. Some of shown features could be used in CM. I like that maps are huge and something like that would allow for an operational view in CM. Everything is Smooth and you can zoom all the way down to the ground and it looks great with nice framerates. CM with graphics like that and same huge maps would be the only game I would ever play.

I've been doing some preliminary work on a community site for CMx2 players and I have now come to a point where I need to decide if I want to commit to it or not. I started doing this for educational purposes but have been thinking about finishing the project and offer it as a service to fellow CMBN players. The Site would support - Real Time Opponent finder - PBEM Opponent Finder - Tracking of all ongoing games - Support for QBs and Stock Scenarios - Combat Mission 2x Exclusive, from start CMBN and CW module with others to follow - Statistic tracking in order to provide useful data on battles fought so most even matchups can be created No of Allies Victories / Battle Type No of Axis Victories / Battle Type - Opponent Feedback - Personal Ranking and track of battles fought - Game Statistics for every registered player - Ability to exclude certain options / games - Tournament Support (bracket style) The plan is to design a dynamic site that CM players can use in order to find proper matchups. I know there are sites out there providing matching options but none of them seem to be complete when it comes to CMx2. I would like to create a site that offers all that and is exclusive to CMx2 but before I commit fully I want to investigate if there is any interest from you fellow CMx2 gamers. I don't want to spend time and money on a project that only few would be interesting in. I'd rather spend the few hours I have each day on playing the game instead If there is major interest then I will commit to this and see it through otherwise I'll scrap the project and go back to gaming/reading. The whole thing will be commercial free and free of charge so I only want to do this as a gift to our unique and great community. I would appreciate your opinion. Thanks!

Nice review. Agree with the writer about the lack of unmanned drones. It's such an important part of today's tactical combat yet it has been completely neglected by BF. It would have given player a huge advantage I agree but it would be realistic and it could definitely have been countered with inclusion of civilian population and camouflage/AA. By sweeping the area you could get an indication of troops but you wouldn't know if these are civilians or hostile, in less populated areas camouflage and AA could counter presence of drones and still make it challenging. Dug in tanks with engines off could still be difficult to see. You still wouldn't get 100% accurate info more like question marks today. Hopefully we'll see them in the next iteration of modern combat unless BF decides to go to Cold War era or earlier.

My general impression is also that houses seem to provide little or no protection but let's think about it for a minute. Let say a squad enters a two store building. With hide command issued the squad will hide and will not reveal themselves to the enemy until detected or other command given. Let’s say now that you are approaching this building, so far it looks quiet, no movement in the windows and no activity around. Suddenly one of your squad guys is hit and hell breaks loose from several windows of the house. What do you and your supporting teams do? You of course open fire on the house. Where do you aim? You aim at muzzle flashes from the windows. What is now happening inside the house? If they still want to engage you they need to shoot at you. Where can they shoot from? Windows only. If they want to hit anything they need to appear in the windows for at least a second. All the fire that is coming from outside is mainly focused on the windows so any attempt to stick your head up will be punished. If you were in the house what would you do? Would you look out from a window that is being blasted with bullets and grenades? The most natural reaction would be to crawl away to a safer place, another window or floor. How is that handled in CM? Are all windows affectively under same amount of fire? Normally only few windows would be engaged which would allow house occupants to shoot from other windows that are currently not under fire. If the house walls are thin you get additional wall penetration that sends splinters and bullets across the room which creates casualties and suppression. The current simulation of the houses may necessary not be wrong but the implementation of them is. We are missing houses with prepared fire positions. Sand bags, shooting slots, basements and so on. Such building would offer much more protection and would be more suitable for defensive actions. Right now the best way to utilize houses is as observation posts and brief fire exchanges where you evacuate the house after your first few bullets. Defensive positions could possibly even be part of the unit purchase where you buy prepared position and then deploy it on any building in the game. The building gets a defensive boost which creates better protection for your troops.

Wow that looks funny. =) It's a bug for sure.

I'm currently working on a solution for this. Stay tuned..

No Crocodile??

It is however important to remember that reviewers today are expecting a certain standard that applies on a broad main stream gaming front and there the looks rule over depth. It is not strange that magazines such as PCG will give mediocre reviews to games like CMBN because in order to appreciate it you really need to be into the tactical wargaming. The majority of gamers today want fast paced action that feels and looks cool. While I personally would like to see better graphics and interface in CMx2 games I still appreciate the depth that keeps me coming back for more. Would I buy CMBN if I wasn't into military history and strategy? Most definitely not. That's OK since I don't think BF is aiming at main stream market. IF they do they'll have to improve on the visual side a lot and probably sacrifice realism something that I would never trade.

In order to get the answer to the first question your 2nd question must be answered first. The Army and Marines are constructed for different roles. The Army is a heavy equipped force that not only requires longer deployment time but it also requires a platform before it can start its operations. The platform required is in most cases friendly territory often through local allies like in Desert Storm in 91. The Marines on the other hand are a much faster reacting force due to their mobile platform aka the Navy and its' Carrier Groups. The role of Marines is to strike at any given time on any place on the planet. Due to this role they are limited to how many heavy weapons they can bring and carry. Large tanks and AFVs not only require space and take up weight but they also heavily rely on supplies like fuel and field maintenance. The Marines are supposed to invade a potential hostile country either by sea landings or helicopter insertion. This means that they must sacrifice tanks and AFVs for helicopters and sea landing APCs. But how does it help them with 3 fire teams instead of 2? Well once on the ground a beach head must be secured or some other objective must be completed. As with any other fights firepower is crucial. Whoever is able to expose the other side to more lead most often wins. The Marines try to cope with this requirement by having bigger squads. More boots on the ground = more weapons. More weapons = More firepower. The army can afford to have fewer fire teams due to the backing of armor while the marines must carry as much as possible in their squads. Once a beach head has been established then Marines can bring in their own tanks but initially they must rely on infantry with air and sea support.

Interesting. I have not done any tests but my general impressions is also that walls, houses and other obstacles do not provide as much cover as they really should. BTW: What weapon silhouettes mod are you using? I can see it includes max range which is really nice to have.

I have all three games and all the modules and I'm also coming back to CMSF all the time. Right now I'm playing the British Campaign in CMSF. The whole CMSF package has a very good feeling, as many above said it is a much more devastating enviroment. I love the modern hardware and the tactics involved. Yesterday my American squad was sitting behind a wall and observing when a huge explosion went of just to the right of them. All but one soldier was injured/killed. I was horrified since CMSF is a much more unforgivable enviroment than CMBN. In hurry I moved another section into the area to provide buddy aid only to have another bomb go off and kill them as well. You should have seen the crater in the street after two bombs had exploded. As was mentioned above even CMA is a nice gem. Plays diffrently than CMSF and CMBN plus you get to play with Red hardware which is always a nice change. Currently I'm playing CMBN in PBEM, CMSF in single player and I ocasionally go back to CMA.

Off Topic but interesting in its own way. A documentary about Wehrmacht Part 1

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