Liam

I disagree... For instance Heavy Tank Technology doesn't compensate for the gains of AT Technology. It's a whole different field. The Tech Tree for SC2 could be much improved... It would allow for some versatility with ones spending and not just that but improves the many unique strategies. As it stands, you could definitely reduce the effectiveness of Jets, Rockets, AT Technology <as it's too uber> and increase Industrial and Heavy Tank technology to make them more worth while. Plus do something with heavy bombers, perhaps allow a further reduction in Entrenchment and more elusive to Fighter interception considering the high flowing heavy armed, armored Strato-fortresses

Really AT Tech is not the key to Infantry<Army, Corp, Division Strength power> The power of the Infantrymen is in his training, his equipment and his vehicles. In SC, the Game Infantry are designed as AT Weapons for a technology gain. Also the increase in size, which makes no difference... You can consider ATGs a component but not the key element to develop Armies and Corps. You would need two seperate entities as far as that's concerned... As well, Tanks carried MG and Support vehicle status designed to help better defend from Infantry sabotage, and ATGs...<Heavier Armor and High Explosive Shells used to wipe out ATG Crews> Watching a show now on the Luger, interesting that it's reputation is not living up to the reality. Perhaps for WW1, but not WW2... The Brits at the beginning of the War, had a Revolver.. Germans used Paratroopers, and extremely bold tactics of Blitzkrieg. There should be a bonus aside from HQs for the first year of War to do away with Keeping france strategy, yet a set date of Surrender as to not make it too easy

Definitely Say Rommel is the underdog in N.Africa and made a good show vs Monty and Monty's underlings. Who had all the Materials, equipment, etc... I don't know of many instances of 1 man achieving what he did with what little he had during WW2. Patton is mentioned here. I don't know of how good he was as a tactician but he was right about the Russians. He was also very aggressive and as mentioned we lacked that, although I firmly believe that he had the go-getter attitude we needed. As did Macarthur. Doenitz for Admirals was a leading man and he would be somewhere in my book. Most definitely for ending the war and taking the fall too.

RTS, has become a bit predictable is the problem. A few guys repeat the same thing a dozen times and expect us all to, WOW! Neato! Blah Blah Blah Bahhhhhhhhh, turn-based is because of the limitation of programming. Noone can make a real time WW2, HOI is what people consider to RTS? I don't consider it that way at all. It may give you some of that feel of a RTS but has a quality that is more idealy suited to Turn-based cause you have to go extremely slow when things matter. One relieving fact is that you don't have to wait for your oponent to finish his turn, that's extremely annoying... <that's one of the biggest complaints about RTS games too , DON'T PAUSE> you'd need a lot of cash, and about 1000 times the processor to have true RTS WW2 on the detail we'd want it.

God you guys are awful Axis & Allies isn't that bad. If you have a good team of 2v2 on RogerWilco it can be a blast.<it's just like any other game it last a few months and you get bored of it> Of course it's not at all realistic or historical. It's a pure board game. Kind of advanced Risk. I think that any title they release with WW2 on it is gonna sell. I restarted my HOI up with the new 105 patch she's got some qualities to her. Some of the things we'd like implemented in SC are right there. Aircraft for instance are a huge Role in the game, but...they do not destroy units singlehandedly... they're only worthwhile used in conjuction with land units...and costly as well... Armor kicks butt and in the right terrain eats infantry. as it should be. You can mantain a real front but you end up having to retreat in the face of greater numbers..you get to appoint historical leaders to division level armies. Oil/Military supplies are all a factor...even the dissent popularity of the war is a factor There is a way to bring up reserves but the readiness system is quite advanced. You don't get endless combat out of the same troops, you've gotta retreat them and rest them or you're gonna just colaspe so in this respect you've gotta pay attention to your front. The political system is a true masterpiece in consideration with other WW2 Simulators.. It's the most advanced WW2 game of it's kind in existence sorry to say nothing I've seen would compare on a tactical detailed level..the whole combat engine is very evolved, years ahead of it's time. A little bit superflous is all. The Makers of HOI have released a title called Victoria I hear that solves some of these overly detailed issues<but is still much more detailed than HOI> and it leads from the 1830s-40s to 1920... I'm much more interested in that title than any re-release of Axis & Allies. You'd really have to blow my soaks off to make an A&A worth buying.. Only reason HOI isn't my cup of tea it's too detailed...and not in the right places. I miss a little bit of the hex warfare. The problem with Axis & Allies it's not detailed enough and you mine as well leave the whole thing up to chance with that redicilious dice system. One starts with A&A though and the other games like SC for instance grow on them. [ December 06, 2003, 03:42 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

So far the vote is pretty unanimous. I have wargame addiction...it's like Heroine or Nicotine to us Real Beer Pretzel Armchair Generals

Zapp, don't let people get underneath your skin. That's what they like to do. Some people are like Scabies <I know I'm one of those need to go to Anger Management People, who won't go> Curry: So long as you follow the ethical code of dos and donts I am up for whatever Game is game, War is War and we all know War is Hell <has no rules> Kinda like love. I'm shocked all this banter doesn't attract more competition

Curry: Immature or Human? Take a look at history and it's full of our supposedly Greatest Generals, Leaders and Politicians with personal grudges, fumbling, errors, etc...

Martin: Interesting... Your Tactical games definitely have the edge in production. 4 outta 5. Glad to see that Battlefront supports her Strategic series as much and I hope that it turns out to be 4-5 titles, I'll buy everyone. If it's like SC it'll have near a year of playability. Something like this has production that costs 5-20X as much with frilly graphics<I'm sure that a large portion goes to advertising and frillies, boxing. I know I still don't sell a my Utility in a box>...in fact SC is a little too addictive and although the community can be a pain in the arse...Some of these butt noses have kept me here for some reason. Beating them Primarily repeatedly <so probably a lot of their fustration is getting their arse beat by me > I noticed a few guys from other like wargames, even over the years have popped up in this forum. We're an oldddd community Wargamers, who get blindsinded. It's almost impossible to school em... When things were going good here we had the topic filled with sooooo much good debate you couldn't find the bad. Sorry about that but I think Wargamers are like New Yorkers. Kel [ November 18, 2003, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

Les, That's exactly it that SC is not a big moneymaker. Another CMBO upgrade will likely net a lot more cash, when I picked up Computer Gaming World one of those wargames was advertised with a write-up. SC is something you never will hear about and is always going to be a minor title. It's going likely be a pet project of his. I don't know that SC is not more of Hubert's BrainChild though than the other Battlefront groups or how much of a share they have. It may be that he gets more from a product like this than the others. It takes more than 1 programmer to make an advanced game like CMBO usually. SC could be made by 1 but not easily. I'm likely thinking 1 year 2 years... Knowing myself the amount of work you have to dedicate to a game like this sad Crud We want Steak and potatoes Problem is now I'm gonna have to crack open HOI or another like game in order to entertain myself as SC can't any longer hold me... Too bad there aren't more dedicated Strategic Wargame fans. If there was SC2 would be already in production phaze.<the cash, risk, time you have to dedicate into what could be a flop. Merely the popping out and distribution of the game could be counter-productive... Honestly I Think that Marketing is a huge step for SC, it needs to be done. The game is capable of making a bigger mark...Although again Risk, Money, Work> Why would a company waste their efforts on a risk when a CMBO is a garauntee ? [ November 17, 2003, 11:27 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

I would like to do a tenative poll. If you were to lay out $25.00/$40.00 right now for an SC2 or SC 2.0 or an Editor<vote> upgraded version. With some neccessary evils, how many people would Put their Money up and backorder a copy of either release??? 1 Liam is one lets see if we can get Hubert 200 names??? Then maybe we'll give him the sort of motivation worth putting the time into a new development.. THanxs [ November 17, 2003, 05:53 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

The game needs either a patch or a new release... You can only run some long on an empty tank of Inspiration

People are not playing SC anymore... Check the oponent finder...

It's not just Zleague that's hurting. It's SC period. I use to get a game within 30-60 minutes of posting or looking. Now it's unlikely I'll get a fun game unless it's someone from Australia or Europe...even then even more unlikely to finish SC2 is well overdo to keep the community alive IMO

Subs weren't used in WW2 to attack big Ships unless it was part of a ambush. They're not built for it. I agree totally with this thread, subs should have the ability along with most German ships to be used for what they were meant for, as raiders... Overall the Kriegsmarine lacked the #s to do anything else with their surface fleet and their big battleships were all trapped in port or sunk in WW2 because they were so grossly outnumbered. All of them were used as Raiders and all of them were only effective as such. The Atlantic is too small right now to effectively use and hide subs and other surface ships. You have to imagine how 'vast' the real Atlantic was, there were definitely the same old trading routes that the Germans targeted and if anyone has question ciggerates, milk, etc... were rationed in WW2 in England the subs hit home sooooo hard. Even after my Dad was a young man in the 50s they were still on War Rations that's how bad those U-boats were. Later on in the war we know that the Allies had more ships to escort Convoys, used their aircraft better... Had better technology to detect and the Germans never expanded their Sub Technology to make them less detectable out of Cost... as well as expanding the Sub Fleet... Raiders were used all over the World too.. Not just the Atlantic. At least the Artic and South Atlantic should be included in some capacity and a random factor should be included. Axis Subs shouldn't be destroyed in these so-called Areas of Operation but strength reduced<increase the cost of reinforcing subs specially too, it's rare for an entire wolf pack to be wiped out as they didn't operate 'closely' together as 1 entity they patroled quite an area and something until later in the war always came home. similarly all ships should be more difficult to destroy...Subs should have very very low combat abilities towards any surface Monsters...how many U-boats sank real UK ships? aside from convoys> and forced to Return to base as well as giving Experience to those anti-raiders in the region.. If they're successful vis versa [ November 16, 2003, 07:03 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

the limitation sounds like a breath of fresh air. I recall my father telling me him travelling in ship the quarters were soooo cramped. It's not easy to load up. The particular craft used for the initial opening of the Beachhead at Normandy<including paratroopers> were different the many of the various craft that followed. They were specially suited for quick flatbottom ships to pull right up on a beach and unload... marine-special forces-paratroop units opened the floodgates for the endless amounts of equipment behind them! Perhaps adding in a bomber rule to increase the level of amphibious effectiveness? now adays I notice I do and many others abuse ports to get the bonus you get against your enemies. Perhaps we should do away altogether with corps landing and assualting enemy positions? it costs signficantly more for an army/tank to do it and in that case people will pay greater for that extra bang?

Dragon, I am looking forward to finally getting good enough to play the programmer.<should be there in another 6months or a year> I hear he is evil! we have special tsunami game on the weekends or use to that Johann played in. He has Victoria comming out soon and I hear it's good. Better than both HOI and EUs

Zapp, I was pretty tired that night Dragon, He baited me, won't say how.. I'd like to play you, time is always the problem it seems people use the Oponent finder so unoften and even less finish games I have 2 games pending now

Some of the differences between HOI and SC I'd like to see implemented: Say for instance in HOI, you can operate a individual "tank," that has certian level of uprgraded technologies for that tank. From a type of Engine, Suspension, MG setup, the type of armament for the Maingun. You can specifically research what you'd like, asign say 100 tanks under a certian commander in an attacking force, get a precise date and time when that attacking force arrives. The supply system is advanced including the use of oil, which for airplanes, ships, tanks, anything motorized is important... Even the leadership is advanced for each aspect of your WarMachine from Propaganda to military Commanders over the entire Nation... You can stock up on supplies like Rubber, Oil, Coal, Ore. That way you've got the ability to wage war longer! Advanced systems of Strategic and tactical warfare that can ultimately guide your way through the game. Some of the problems I ran into what the fact that cheesy old Russia would be a harder nation to defeat than taking the 'key's in Europe which I feel would've caused Political collaspe throughout the entire Nation. As I remeber people complained about a Siberian Province continueing on the war Effort. Some of the fun aspects, was that you could play China, Canada, etc... You could be any nation you want. You could basically rewrite history in that... And sorta Ahistorical with Tech sharing between Allies and the fact the AI is very inept you could expand beyond belief. I'm certian with house rules and a dedicated crew you could make the game HOI very very playable... SC, has the appeal of a wargame you can sit down and actually finish 1v1.. Although I would like to see the ability of Axis & Allies, HOI, and other very popular MP Strategic/Wargames, whatever... more than 2 player... although part of the stability of the game is the two player. Although HOI has an advanced system of combat, you can fall asleep with it, it's not turned base. the way I had it setup, I forget if you can do turn based. In SC, I would like to see a greater variation on the Unit-types, their capabilities, real life with these capabilities as well! Sorta now, it's unrealistic as the HOI AI system is that you can make Rockets into TOW missiles. Jets into F-17s, ATG tech and Tank tech was the only tech back that early on that was close to historical in SC. The map needs to be improved, the interface expanded, and with this the ability to further implement the new unit types. I like the fact that you can operate a unit that has some historical resemblance. Now it's hard to that in SC, what is historical truly? The Naval system is closer than any other part Unit wise, though maybe not amphibious aspects... You make SC triple the map, add in about 10-15 unit types. Correct the way Jets-Rockets-Corps are used. Fact Corps are way too powerful. The real war actually didn't have many stalemates in comparison as you find in SC. Maybe Italy being the exception. The Germans maybe could've forced one on the Eastern Front...More or less though the weapons on the offensive, had the ability and the locations to hit 'always' to end th war at some point in realistic 'grounds'. SC has a long way to go, IMO to truly be my favourite Wargame of all time. Although she could be... People have to realize complexity doesn't mean anything. Axis & Allies is not very complex it's a boardgame, takes about the same time sometimes to finish a game as SC between steady players. HOI is based off a boardgame... Europa Universalis I was a converted wargame by a Swede...HOI really resembles it soooooo much in places you can tell he cut and pasted the the map/script/and other aspects.. It's been a dissappointment only because I guess I'm spoiled by other options. i.e. SC, is much easier to get a game going, with out ten trillion problems.

SandCastle ICQ.COM a lot like AIM, MSNmessenger a messenger service

to be honest with you I haven't seen any Wargames quite like SC out lately! Some shareware stuff guys on the boards here have linked was closer than the stuff I've seen released. Third Reich I believe was close from the 90s<not absolutely sure on title, been awhile since I played it> High Command. Clash of Steel. I played a game people don't equate to SC in the 80s Storm Across Europe, although wasn't hex warfare was very similar. SSI released a lot of games with hex warfare East to West Front. Very detailed some of them, more so than SC. You still didn't usually get much control over the bigger picture IMO. That was the economics, ability to DOW Nations, or seperate historic possabilities. HOI really isn't much like SC. It's quite different. It's about ten times the size and is very detailed, and I'm sure I'd love it but the fact is you simply can't play a game of HOI in a week, maybe 6 months...

Blashy I'm not a proffessional Ally, but a smart one can if they take LC/Ireland and play their cards right with Exp. French units actually attack Rambo did the wise thing he focused my attention from LC to Denmark, delaying my invasion plans 3 turns that gave him that essential Plunder for the UK, building almost an equal Airforce to mine. It's a balancing act, in our last game it took me to nearly 1941 to take France from Rambo. Fact is if a player delays you this long, prep for Sea Lion or quit if they're good This game is about Air Superiority to a large degree. The Allies took it after they could afford an HQ, and reinforced Airfleets. I overextended myself. It's likely in retrospect I would've invaded Greece and Sweden...if that would have helped but then again he hunted down my fleet and obliterated it Rambo is ranked #2 on Zleague, he's a top notch player. I haven't played Dragon yet but people like him Hombre,Terif, Zapp, etc... you cannot afford to dilly dally your opening as Axis like I did. They'll make you eat it! You gotta get those 3 Minors and break France's butt fast! [ November 12, 2003, 05:09 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

November 1940, The Fall of The Third Reich Axis forces!!! surrender!!! after the Italian Navy reaches forth for the bottom of the Western Med Near Spain. Though the Southern Flank was but a few hexes from Paris, Panzers slow in the mud of the oncoming Winter and feel no need to go further. the Luftwaffe however remains defiant as the Stukas and MEs Kamis the French Army in the Ardenne, hoping for some sort of Victory that they could've possibly written in the history books that their sons and daughters could've read??? Most of the Italian Armies<poorly lead> are destroyed utterly by faster moving, British SAS and French Foreign Legions in Algiers, outside of Marseilles using the Super Marine Spitfire and the Awesome Monty the Third Reich is divided amongst France and Britian and forced to pay Triple that of the Treaty Versallies The German are a beaten and downtrodden people The Brits have the Air advantage.

Round the close bombing takes its toll nearly destroying the entire Italian Continental Army, rallying back Luftwaffe pilots launch a counterstrike on Monty's Flying Circus decimating a Fighter unit. The North stabilizes in a straight line again, things are moving slowly the South Grinds to a Halt as Fall, Falls in... no gains

Late Summer-Fall 1940, things are looking bleak for the Axis despite Gains in Southern France. The Whole Flanking operation including the Italian fleet are met in the South with the British Royal navy heavy armament brought down upon them crushing their puny untrained Guns<lacking modern technology for Radar> Although we barely escape with one of our cruisers and smack one Brit Cruiser...the relatitory strike by the British Navy near decimates the entire Italian fleet, almost destroying the Amphibious landing forces near Algiers Port We're scurrying for some ground here. Little to be taken. Much to be lost. Monty and his Airforce is smashing Axis Forces