Liam

http://leden.tref.nl/%7Ejviss000/Default.htm This is a listing of the Dutch ships that were around at the time. Apparently as the site indicates much of the newly formed Dutch navy was smooshed during the German Invasion I'm certian it would be fair competition for the Kriegsmarine

A little history of Holland. At one time they ran one of the largest trading Empires in the World! I know quite well the history since my continual Europa Unversalis 2 World Of Exploration Scenario makes the Dutch a VERY Formidable Force. Equal to England in Navy lacking only the Manpower for a massive Army to Conquor and Plunder the World Over. Technology Leaders, great bankers, likely a good balancing force against making the British Empire #1 too early, plus keeping Spain and Portugal Honest Of Great Colonial Nations, I'd have to say Portugal/Spain/England/France/Netherlands Top all time http://occawlonline.pearsoned.com/bookbind/pubbooks/brummett_awl/chapter20/medialib/thumbs/ch20_378.html

John good to hear from you we'll discuss things I'm certian over a cup of tea and a game of SC. Always fun to learn from a real aficionado of History and SC Japinard: Ireland, being part Irish back in the blood way back and part gypsy I'll speak for the Irish People here "We'd NEVER SERVE ADOLF!" But Hell with the English too to be quite frank

As the British Player, if you disband the Irish Corps, I'll dedicate 1 Off Italian/German corps to clean up Ireland! Also I'll dispatch a corps to Canada near the ending of the Campaign to take out the rest of British Foreign MPP in the Atlantic. If nothing else you can use the Irish corps for Recon on the coast

http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/aircraft.html whoopsies

Not sure of Swedish, Spanish or Turkish Airforces. Likely biplanes... Then again not the only, the Russians and Polish too <Interesting quote from Airforce Myths to downgrade the value of our Role of Carriers SC http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/aircraft.html> Myth: "The Fairey Swordfish flew so slowly that naval anti-aircraft guns couldn't track it." - ALL the attacking Swordfishes in the 'Channel Dash' incident were shot down, mostly by AA fire.

Don't disband the Ireland Corps until you've dealt with the other Theatres. You don't get enough to make it worth it and if I'm a German player running Sealion I'll strangle every last drop even if it means landing an Italian into Ireland

Shaka. "Borg Effect" interesting The penalty now for a Major like Germany invading a Minor Politically is not too too bad. USSR and USA come in faster. The penatly for the UK is laughable. Just the USA is moved back some !!! I think Stalin would have got peed too about Allied Expanionists It would be kewl to have more detailed Neutral Roles to make them more a challenge then a few Armors and Air units and 1 turn

Worm: I heard the stories that the local Garrisons in Holland or Southern Belgium would take their liberties with the local woman no matter what age unless you were lucky enough to be part German or speak it. Don't know how widespread this was, but I don't hear anything on that level with the American or British Armies. Acts so cruel. Food was hard to come by, most of the children born in that era lost their teeth. Few precious ways to get food. No candles or lights allowed at night. I'm sure life wasn't a walk in the park for these occuppied nations although hardly as bad as what the Russians and Slavs faced under the Swatika. Hitler didn't have plans to relocate Germans to Holland, Belgium or France. Though he was pretty clear about clearing large tracts of Poland through Russia for Germany. I'm sure of what you say is true, though there ethnic Ideology I'm not sure about. I think what Rambo is saying is that most Europeans hated Jews and the other groups. Not 100% true, partly true! I've spoken to many many "Europeans" and lived in Germany and England. Even Churchill didn't like the Jews much. Ironically<as I once said before> aside from Warsaw the 2nd largest Jewish population was in Chicargo.

Very detailed information John: As usual! Glad to see you back in condition! I hate to say it but despite America's lovely wealthy Capitolist System if you're ever on a street or sick, WATCH OUT! You may if you're fortunate get our Democratic Side rather than our Republican. Soon I'm going to face a similar Wraith between both sides. -- Most of Europe during WW2 was still living back in an old Faery Tale. I think that people tend to forget that they're not modern peoples from the 1940s in a large portion of Europe. The Germans were probably some of the more Modern Peoples along with the French Dutch and English. Even once upon a time the Russians were attempting to move forward if it wasn't for Intellectual hating Communists. Problem is when you motivate the Germans into a Brainwashed society of Swatika Saluting Stupified folks you get Pure and Utter Chaos. Most European Nations showed some disdain for the Jews and Gypsies. Some to the Slavs as well<Even though this shocks me as Hitler saw them as the next Factor> Fact is most of these Ethnic groups always had gotten Grief. The Turks started off Ethnic Cleansing During WW1 with the Armenians. Don't forget the Vatican Aiding Nazis to get to S.America. Lots of guilt to go around but the fact is intolerance is a pretty common thing. To this day, in society most don't accept what's different from them. Just now it seems more focused on Muslim and Christian hatred. It's in our survival instinct to procreate our own Species and exterminate anything that isn't close to our own Genes, it's very Scientific. Just in Modern times it's time to shed away the ancient crap cause sex isn't rape anymore and we don't need to hunt for food anymore we grow it. Times have changed just some people haven't... We'll probably never have a Eutopian world of Tolerance and Free Love but we can aim for that I think.. Some Germans didn't like Hitler, fact is most of these Germans were sent to re-education Camps. For as much as it's worth I hear it was a percent or two. I'm certian there were many many others that were afraid of him too! Sorry but when it comes to your family, friends and such... some ethnic group comes second! We're only human and Europeans of the 40s were only human too. Some sick stuff but it's not like it's anything new. As I said before, Intolerance is ancient.

Dunno iv I believe in all that Numerological stuff Rambo. Even though I would say Hitler was Evil. In every sense of the Word, Scientifically and Spiritually<no matter what form it is for you> he was the most evil man that stood out of the 20th century. There have been others like him in the past. From the Mongol Khans, to Vladimir Dracula, Countess Bathory. Some may even say Ivan the Terrible. On and on... Though there are so many even figures in history. It's neverending. I would say that Hitler was definitely one who came close to conquoring the World in 1941 and inflicting his ideology on the World forevermore. Though Good stood out in the Hearts of Many Men and fought the Evil. I won't say that the Europeans were much help. Gotta remeber though the USA, USSR, and UK all stood by and watched him grow. Was their no forsight? Then again Stalin was a pretty evil man himself, just not quite as ambitious about spreading his Ideology 'everywhere' or was it merely the fact he didn't have the time? Some say he was a Devil also. Make evil is embodied in more than one Figure. Though in many, throughout time and until this day. It's up to the few good men to stand up and fight Evil. Kinda like the Rambo Movies aye

LOL Worm, I have a Girlfriend who's GrandFather was Belgian and served in the Wermacht but he was 50ish by then and Germany was calling every able Bodied man. What some forget too, if you were of Military Service Age, and you didn't fight what do you think the Local S.S. or German Police would do to you and your family? You're right, the Dutch in their history were definitely fighters and a "MAJOR" Power and in comparison with Germany they were like Kuwait was to Iraq. In 1940, Once upon a time however the Dutch were probably a comparison Power with Prussia. Century before Prussia formed.

HQs are a pain in the arse IMO! Leadership shouldn't be a seperate unit in SC on this strategic Level game.<if you made 3 more hexes per 1, and added several units then it would be fine> At least tie it into a Army or Tank Group. Also why should a General of the Army give a bonus to the Airforce? Where are Admirals? The system is too complicated to allocate supply, and not a science considering the wide use of Air Power.

From what I've read in the old days it wasn't anywhere near 50,000 Dutch, more like 15,000. Plus the Dutch were fighting the Japs in the Pacific<you know what being captured by the Japanese Meant, worse than being captured by the Russians> The fact of the matter is, many of the LC people are German. Where did the Kaiser run off to after WW1. There should be no Dutch defences and just 1 Belgique Corps more accurately IMO

Don't you think it's equally kind of stupid though Rambo that the RAF sits off London killing whole corps in Paris and Antwerp? I mean you're kinda comparing apples and oranges. Plus the fact that Carriers don't take damage from ground units. It works both ways and the 5 MPP port of Malta is hardly a comparison

That is not a real workable solution. You can DOW Norway and Spain on the same turn if you're a skilled Axis. Better idea is making it impossible for Germany to DOW another Fascist Nation. Secondly, making a "HUGE" penalty for invading the Traditionally Neutral Countries of Switzerland and Sweden. If you're working with the existing '39 Fall Weiss making an edit or HouseRule that say includes no Allied LC-Italian-Spanish-Ireland-Portugal DOWs in trade for now DOW on Spain/Portugal/Sweden or Iraq perhaps that would be best? Plus pushing off Vichy till after Barbarossa

it's a known fact that level3 air, with 4 airfleets supported by HQ in Sicilty can eat Malta... historically there was better air defense in these forts than SC gives IMO

Rambo... Nazis, smazis... War has been going on since the beginning of time. In this sense almost every Innocent is Guilty. The Germans used an evil Dictator and a bunch of backwards Ideology. The first World War created a bunch of poisoned men and poisoned ideas that created a 2nd war... It was Balance of sorts...There are plenty of people that would say that George Bush would light up the world with Nukes to stop the North Korean Threat in the name of Humanity and end up causing a Global conflict. Would he think smart and send in 50,000 Special Trained Commandos or talk a bunch of trash and Say mine is Bigger than Yours? Americans are not innocent. We stole this land from hundreds of thousands<if not Millions of Natives> They're not innocent a recent skull finding says that in fact the American Indians may have come here and gone to war with an earlier settling people from Asia or Polynesia to take it. War is about Wealth, Power, the Nature of Humanity. Whether it's wrong or right, ultimately death is the outcome. Becareful though, if Bush were to end all Civilization as we know it for some stupid error or cause the death of say few hundred Million Asians we'd all be seen as the biggest bloodiest Evil Empire that ever exists. Fine line exists. I can't say that the man's hand might not be forced either. Germany say the Ability to expand, noone was going to stop them. Noone had the Cohonas. They felt we're stronger, we're willing to die for it and the rest of you aren't. The problem was they took a crap in the backyard of too many Other Bigger Dogs. Like the USA/USSR/UK and finally it caught up with them Otherwise when would the US ever gotten involved? Never... Hitler and his regime was ugly, but the concept of expansion goes with Cereal and Milk. It's a good way to make money and did Wonders for their economy till they found out their dictator was more idealy suited to lead a squad of men not a nation. That their ideologies were backwards I think that we all want Humanity, a common ground. Not foolish though, the World is a Dangerous place, don't go out of your way to hurt anyone but don't let yourself get walked over. Remeber what the bible said though, "The Meek Shall inherit the Earth." It's true, cause all the Warriors will kill each other off and the Little Bugs and Rodents will hide and reproduce in the little protected nooks and crannies

Well actually, unlike all the European Countries... Nations like Denmark had lots of treasures, infrastructure, etc... Unlike nations like the Bahamas... Which are remote resorts, ex colonials. Denmark is an ancient Nation and not only that but you can easily enlist many of the locals with the offering of food and wine<anyone take it vs Starving to death including you guys> to be police or Eastern Front Garrison troops If you fought Hitler as a mini-Nation he'd of just made your suffering worse. These nations never armed themselves. They were relying on Nations like England and France to keep the International Balance. Also invading them gave Germany great Gains but also the Image of a Barbarian which in the end was part of their undoing. You have to remeber something else in 1939 the Wermacht would've run over the American Army in a few weeks... We were really pitiful at the time. honestly do you think any nation with the less than a few hundred thousand men in arms could do? The Germans were fighters, they were equiped, they spent their cash on their arms... they were capable... Most weren't. Have to remeber France, Britian and USSR are the factors that should've stopped Worldwide Socialism. Their leaders were MAJORLY incompetent, selfish, and did crap or the War probably would've ended in France in 1940. Want an example look at Italy. the Greek Army nearly routed them The Italians were not cut out for War in 1940 and in fact they never did much to speak of but overran Albania and Ethiopia? Oh my God. I think they still used Spears as the FrontLine Anti-Tank Weapon in those Nations... Plus the Italians heard an artillery shell dropped their rifles and ran

The Finnish would never fought without a good chance of winning. Perhaps seeing Germany go at it was enough and they wanted what they'd lost back. Can't blame though they had men serve in branches of the German Army too. They had help from Germany overall so you have to say that they were Axis and would've become Axis because the Russians had peed them off. As far as the rest of the Balkans the borders drawn up after WW1 were never very concrete and to this day there are disputes. Perhaps something the Axis took advantage of aye?

I am not sure of the Yugoslavs at all. A very divided Nation, even if they went Pro-Axis would they have contributed much? I doubt it... Look at them now. Hardly United Idaho I'm not too sure of, but I'll bet their mostly Ethnic German. To call them Hillbillys is kinda stereotyping however. As they're no more hillbillys than most of the Ukrainian farmers<which made up a huge amount of Russias population> and they didn't like the Axis or the Russians. One has to remeber People like Rambo are exactly what one needs. When you have Say the North and South, during the Civil War. you Got 2 extremes, and as you get closer to the Middle you get the Conservatives... Without the extremes you'll never accomplish much. Anti-Nazi was definitely needed, Hitler wasn't only Nazi. Germany was Evil... That's undisputed Finland would've definitely entered when they saw an opportunity. Russians had invaded them in 1940 And yes the Russians were hogging the Baltic Region.. Maybe not a bad Idea? Giving an extra zone for the Germans when they invaded hehehe but I doubt Stalin intended it that way... Baltic Peoples are more Germanic than Russian... Wasn't Gothic the very architecture created in one of the Baltic Republics, I think so the concept at least... Don't underestimate the the spread of Germanic influence. For most of them though it wasn't an ideology it was re-conquest after the Poor Division of Europe after WW1 that mattered...

Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary definitely Pro-Axis. As far these being puppet regimes I'm not sure. Switzerland was Neutral along with Sweden but both made cash off both sides. The Swedes sold the Allies weapons too! Norway hated the Axis from what I recall. Denmark never mattered, they were too weak to fight. Spain was Definitely Pro-Axis, it was supported Pro-Fascist in their Civil War by Italy and Germany. As far as Greece is concerned I definitely see Pro-Allied sentiments there... Not unlike Yugoslavia. I'm sure they would've fought and they did Canada was 100% French and British... Iraq had their dislikes of the Colonials so there was mixed sentiment<but back then they were a bunch of Sheep herders> Belgium and the Netherlands? Hmmm, lots of Nazis there but since they were Adjacent to Uber Anglo/French Alliance where do you think they leaned? And No! Not all of Europeans were Pro-Nazi. There were definitely percentages, and get this one of the largest one was in the USA. The Bund<sp? was an American Pro-Axis organization They boasted Hundreds of thousands of Members [ January 22, 2004, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

We got some punchlines for our LateNight with Conan the failed Panzer Division Specialist: When the community asks Hubert when a new release of SC will be: I started this game when I was 25 and still partying with the chicks and guzzling booze. When I get to play SC2 I'll have a back problem, I'll be sipping Brandy and I'll need Viagra! :eek: When Terif asks you for a game, you answer with: A. How much of a bid are you going to give me? B. How many HouseRules can we Agree to? C. You ask yourself how long you'd like to partake in this this self mutilation When you talk to Rambo about Defense. He answers, "What?" When you post a message on the boards, the Moderators say: Is It Posted By Kuniworth? Delete it! Does it have the word darn in it? Delete it! If Liam is getting Moon'ed! Keep it! [ January 21, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

We got some punchlines for our LateNight with Conan the failed Panzer Division Specialist: When the community asks Hubert when a new release of SC will be: I started this game when I was 25 and still partying with the chicks and guzzling booze. When I get to play SC2 I'll have a back problem, I'll be sipping Brandy and I'll need Viagra! :eek: When Terif asks you for a game, you answer with: A. How much of a bid are you going to give me? B. How many HouseRules can we Agree to? C. You ask yourself how long you'd like to partake in this this self mutilation When you talk to Rambo about Defense. He answers, "What?" When you post a message on the boards, the Moderators say: Is It Posted By Kuniworth? Delete it! Does it have the word darn in it? Delete it! If Liam is getting Moon'ed! Keep it! [ January 21, 2004, 05:46 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

The Russian War is definitely the most entertaining if you like land warfare. My favorite. From the eternal siege of Leningrad, to the Tank Battles in Kursk the encirclement of the 6th in Stalingrad. Endless amounts of reading material and battles. Though many historians disagree about things, I think we all can agree the Reds payed a lot more Red than we did. Although I suppose that's what they get for going to bed with Germany in Poland The Russians had lots of equipment from what I've heard and always were good at mass production. I don't know if on the level the USA could do if the USA really really rationed to the degree that other nations had done. The USSR really outproduced Germany by far and they had some quality goods, and where they lacked quality they had numbers. The people were suprisingly devoted the leadership adaquete... You really have to say on the all, the Russians knew that if they lost they were all dead so fight to the death instead and that they did. Something the US and other nations haven't faced in their recent history, perhaps something instilled in the Russian people for centuries going back to the time of the Mongol Invasion. I'd really like to see the Eastern front have a few more essential cities and a slight bit more length to it so we could put 3 million invading Axis