Liam

when you do get better you're gonna have to play me some IP John! I'll give you a huge MPP load before hand to make it harder for me

Hope you get better soon m8, take care John

Edwin interesting! Very easy way to create a different approach to war... the airforce/navy all need an assignment. I think one of the downfalls of the Reich were it's overextended supply lines from Norway to Egypt. From the Spanish border to the gates of Moscow. If she somehow could've learned to hold and consolidate all that real-estate she could've likely been a 'massive danger'... A rest after France some say would have been a "huge" Asset. Some say if she would've stopped there noone or nothing could've stopped her with the proper defenses. Others say Russia was mobilizing for a future war. Really you're forced as Axis to go from France to Vichy-Norway-Sweden-on and on... to gain MPPs to fight a war.

Agreed an editor would be nice<since then everything is set in stone and you can truly modify all the Major issues>. In most of my other MP Games there is massive patching and most have an editor also. Usually Editors do away with most HouseRules. Though you still always have to follow a small set of them...no matter what... Some technology for Military Doctine would replace the need for tactical research for SC itself. Until you make the game bigger. Intelligence and Warfare Tactics<where the Germans would have a major lead in> Limitations on research for each nation would be good. Though maybe not entirely cutting them out. Just making it harder for them and more expensive... Germany, Britian, France and the USA were all advanced. More so than Japan, Italy or Russia... Russia had #s vs Technology.

Shaka: Perhaps you have caught me there. The engine for a wargame is lovely, but the way termed it was attacking the history which I am much more an addict to than the engine.HouseRules and other options shouldn't be neccessary. If someone wants a Wargame there are many... This is meant as one of Battlefronts boasts has history and playability in it There are hundreds of wargames, with well, in their own right mixed accuracy. This game however is well modeled and made to simulate WW2 on a strategic level and in that regard Realism<which is the same as history if some people tend to forget it> should be right next to playability. Part of the reason I keep losing is I won't adopt some of the newer Ahistorical Strategies that other players do. Looking on ways to tweak the game engine to drag more and more out of it... I'd like for an editor, as I said houserules are tedious. If you could re-write the way the game was played, all would adopt it Fall of France is a massive issue. Kind of hard to envision you moving onward without it? Germany definitely wouldn't have gone very far without Paris and that's a fact. SC comes down to 2 victories, those in France and those not in it. Which is somewhat accurate. Game ending so early, well if you're not a very good Axis then that should happen I suppose. Although breaking France can be a lot harder than breaking England or Russia the way things are setup. Which is sorta funny and sense this is a more strategic than tactical level game it's probably unlikely the Player in control of the Allies could've prevented much of the errors that were originally made on a more tactical level. Back when I was younger it was always a given that Hitler ran over France in a second. Few ever questioned that the Nazis really didn't have to work hard at that. They'd built up since '33 while everyone else was asleep and the Maginot was ineffective against a mobile army that swung around it and plowed deep into the heart of their enemy. Although now second thinking, with little articles of read and various programs/individuals I've come to believe France could've been not saved but a dying ground for the Germans...which would've not permitted them to move onward. Though you'd have to go far more tactical to make this happen. Give the French AT technology<they had extremely good Anti-Tank Weapons> Give them heavy tanks and armor on the map. Give them Leadership, as well as bit of Brit aid and then you have a real fight even without all the gambits/bids...

Comrade: True, with 5 chits on Jets you can do a hellish amount of damage if you're lucky enough to cash in on them! Once I start reaching level3 and have a significant amount of Leadership/Experience/and a Fine HQ Britian is dire straights. With a well organized Russian Army though those same planes can be less useful until you start to dig into the heart of Russia and if the Allies have built up enough reserves and tech of their own then you have a counterweight. So VERY Impossible, going from 109s to Migs in 1 year but still Jet technology is the problem not the research IMO. as we all know Jets are just too awesome... You know if you see a player is putting a lot of cash into technology, you're going to have to take a large risk. It's the only way to counter his likely gains. It's the perfect counter. That way the game does actually find balance. I know I've forced a few players to even cash in their chits with a well planned SeaLion or vis versa using the Allied forces to 'block' Axis Aggression Houserules though, definitely the answer for more history. Although myself personally i love the '39 start and I really like to face the Russians. Perhaps a 0:0:14 bid ??? LOL

agreed! considering the US Forces wouldn't be considered neccessary.

Shaka: with the bidding system in place, doesn't take long for the Brits to land behind the lines for support. <they disband their so so useful bomber and a few extra MPPs buy Monty and then invade a few Minors and gain a few Armies, or extra HQ and operate all Air to London for Interception day> French disband a few Units and Make a HQ and bam! Turn Two you got a full fledged Allied Offensive... Although taking out Ireland and a possible LC/Spanish-Port gambit takes more than a few turns most skilled Allies can clean that out during the Spring of 1940. You can't tell me that the original Allied forces were capable of this during the 1940s? If they were they wouldn't have surrended in 6 weeks... and they most certianly wouldn't get plunder or any US/USSR Sympathy for DOWing Minors and stealing the Gold/Wealth of the Free World. The game is soooooo Much about a Minor Jump or a quick blocking action on the Germans... 90% of my games end in 1941 The Game Design if flawed. I'm attempting to make the game more historical with my suggestions. Not neccessarily trying to make the game more Anal or tactical. MAYBE JUST A TOUCH I really really think that the Game should be oriented to a Russian Front and less a Gambit to rush through the Lowlands, France and finally conquor Britian. Why delay the inevitable. Historically do you really think it could've been avoided? Probably... But SC is based more on history than what-ifs? I like this posting about Fall of France... Reiterates my original posting that the French and Brits at least should get good junk to get killed... and not make a unit a different unit to represent something other than it is... as it is done is sooooo many cases in SC. For instance the initial size of the Russian Forces. Bahhh! They had MUCH MUCH more than that! Germans<they had great armor, air, and large quantity of forces overall>? Though the big question is, could they? Biggest Question I suppose from the early portion of the War. http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/000328.html [ January 19, 2004, 12:34 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

Shaka: We take away HQs for the Allies though many were in service during the initial German advances to give the German's the Blitz like effectiveness advantage that equates to Blitzkrieg. Or do you see it differently? I don't! Although we can disband a few unnceccesary units within about 4-6 turns you can have an effective BEF/French Army! The only advantage short term is Luftwaffe<3 units> The armor doesn't come to account unless you manage a miracle breakthrough which is impossible unless against a real real weak Ally or one who doesn't care about defense... Armor canot manuever on the terrain... Perhaps forcing the Allies to have to wait to employ HQs with a HouseRule would remedy their offensive capabilities. They couldn't have changed their doctrine, Blitzkrieg was a studied tactic and the Generals were educated in it to use it and employ it to maximum effectivness. French and Brit Generals were backwards in comparison< though none the less talented > and later they would come up to par with much practice and observation. Would Zhukov been the legend he is if Monty had the Armor and opportunities to plow through France in say '43? With 6,000 Super Matildas and a massive RAF reigning down fire on reinforcing Germans? Or what if Egypt had been the real Allied VS Axis Battleground due to German success vs Russia. If Monty had the resources could have been King of Allied and Russian tank killing Generals? Counter offensives? luckily, SC makes it possible but usually armor isn't employed. Too expensive, not effective enough killing machines... Not enough manuevering hexes. Corps should be 'straight' support units no combatants against Armies or Tank Armies I suppose the fact that 1 unit is no different than another is strategically correct. SC is not a very detailed tactical game at all, it does however have a taste of it. With more detailed Maps, more accurate Combat, then<!> giving each nation their true historical advantage had it been developed would be nice. Hubert gives them tech advantages already, why not make these tech advantages a bit more precise and detailed? The Allies should have no bonuses till late 1941. The Russians same.. Massive MPP bonuses and tech enhancements from the many nations aligned against the Axis then should be implemented to counter the Blitzkrieg and early weaknesses of Allies to patch it up. Defense however should be a stronger point say for England, make Sea Lion more accurately<difficult> by advancing the Transportation System and increasing the Readiness of the USSR/USA

Shaka, thing is with SC opening you buy an HQ, ship enough British Corps and you can make Northern France a Killing Ground. Essentially you give what the Allies couldn't have possible created on their own, effective units<while SC has not true Blitzkrieg in that regard with lucky dice and taking reak risk> Historically there was no way to go back into to time and force the Allies to bone up on a new age of warefare without actually having their leadership experience the same 'learning pains' they did to finally counter Blitzkrieg and also to some degree create one of their own. The Reds had a lot more experience vs the Germans and faced the Majority of the Wermacht which is why they learned faster but initially there is no way the French and Brits could've organized to face this so I feel that either Nation buying leadership before a certian time period is very Ahistorical either that or giving the Germans a Bonus on The Continent vs all Allied Forces until 1942-43 on... Also against the Russians initially say 20-30% effectiveness increase for Blitzkrieg Effect then vis versa giving the Allies the real "Economic" Power they had with the Massive USA/USSR Industry.

Les and Shaka: Big part of the problem with Armor is that you are stuck with a exposed<expensive> unit if you use it as a breakthrough weapon, which is rarely done unless the attacker realizes there is no real counter. Plus we've all heard the sadness about Heavy Armor, it's probably a 'major' bug. That wasn't fixed because favoritism to keeping combat even like it is now and maybe playtesting has shown that making HeavyTanks like AntiTank Technology is very dangerous. We use corps<as mentioned in one of your posts> now to stuff in the holes to save our poor Armor from being hurt and we use Armor to smash against Armies or to blitz through Minors... Which in that way they do fullfill their historic purpose. The British Matilda had very few weak spots and the only effective weapons used against it were German Artillery and Mobile AT Killers. Fact is there probably wasn't very many of them in France tto do the job. I agree that the Allies shouldn't be punished by getting no armor they should be punished with another factor. Perhaps the delay of purchasing a Headquaters to reflect the poor state of Organization and Military Tactics. They had to spend many years to learn them to counter. The Russians had to pay in 'lives' As mentioned there were more French and British tanks then German as better so why not set them up and also as far as Readiness is concerned a Flanking Armor unit should get a bonus... Something in the combat structure should be worked out. Making it very difficult for units they've flanked to immediately destroy them as they do now. Perhaps halving the units it's adajacent to by a random 50% factor meaning some of the Divisons have dispersed and captured Fuel/Ammo depots cut of supply sabotaged Communcation and furthering this combat additive with Bomber or Fighter support tying in historically the basic essence of Blitzkrieg. Cutting of enemy supply communication encircling it at lightning fast speed and then destroying it

Slapaho, perhaps I gave off the wrong impression by my statement. Let me elaborate. First of all, German Armor is overpowered and the Allies don't get 1 Armor unit to begin with. Both the British and French Armor in 1940 was ahead of German armor. I suppose the reason that Hubert doesn't put a tank unit in is because he's using the doctrine that Allied Commanders of the period did seperating Tank units amongst infantry for mainly just infantry support weapons rather than as you say using them as Deep Penetrating Blitzkrieg type weapons... In that regard giving the Germans 2 Armor to begin with gives them a Blitzkrieg effect, but the only way. That and HQs and 3 airfleets... Though look right off, the Frogs/Brits pull off some gamey gambit to assemble a proper counter to any real blitzkrieg so it's null and void really aside from the fact the Germans start with 2 HQs and plenty of plunder to get up around 4-5-6 Airfleets to break the Corp Trenchstyle Warfare that is done by the French/Brits to protect Fall of France. The French and British had more Armor and better Armor. It had poorer Optics, slower turrets and were overall a slower moving machine but but the Brit and French Armor was far more armored, has slopping armor that was harder to penetrate. They had larger calibar guns that would be kinda be like Shermans vs Tigers... Just not the sort of Organization that the Germans had to employ them. The Germans get the similar effect with Russia and the USA with no HQs and pre-set Starting Locations. Though it's not very realistic. Really both French and British Armor should start off Tech 1 and German 0. I suggest changing things around a tad bit, also Armor is too cheap and not strong enough as Corp Warfare is still widely used<more WW1 style then WW2 style war>. Partly due to the limitations on the Map. Though if I had an editor I would raise the Combat Power of Tanks until Anti-Tank Weapons are developed well above what Fighter-Jet Tech is to make it a mainstay of European conflict. Right now as it stands Jets are the key to breaking trench warfare not Tanks as was historical. The Germans likely could've conquored Poland and France with much less air and purely Armor... So in that regard is misrepresented. Let's put this question on you, on average how many armor do you buy as Germany? I buy maximum is 3-4 extra for the whole game<and that's a very long game> and I usually by an extra 6-10 Fighter Fleets.. So perhaps you can get my drift on how landwarfare and the tank's real roll<e> is sorta missing?

The game represents the cost of Armor poorly... also the various Qualities, here is an interesting link for folks who're avid followers http://www.wwiivehicles.com/html/germany/index.htm

LOL you two are nuts Zapp and Rambo I love you both, :Group Hug: LOL Interesting! I never knew a Kraut Bomber was Mr. Carrier Killer, can you imagine 2 of those puppies with 3-4 Subs??? And then Fighters to back up against the rest of the Brit Navy! I'm gonna practice some new Wax the Royal Navy Strategies. I notice without one, if the Kriegsmarine comes up to size early Domination of the Sea is Domination of Minors and the MPP advantage to pay for expensive Units that though some defensive players may be against Naval is overlooked for most Germanys. Mix the Italian and German Navy and the USA/UK is easy to take out...even if you fail with USSR in '41... I notice that the biggest Weakness of Carriers is their distance, don't operate where there are 4 Star Carriers with even level3 jets. Problem is inevitably they come to a place that matters... though they're pretty much locked to a small Operating Area. Also if you have an Axis fleet you can doosh Unprotected Carriers so the whole fleet has to move with them. One last question, HOW THE HECK... does the UK update a small squadron of Swordfish Biplanes into Uber Chuch Yeagers with Jet Engines in 2 years of the War?????????? DUHHHHH! Something gives ??? Bahhhhnessss [ January 16, 2004, 02:37 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

That's highly unorthodox of you Condor! A carrier for Germany? Did I hear that right... errrrr, I wish I could plunder Sweden myself Get him next time

can't sign-up to this league, gives me an error

Axis Surrender before the Summer Onslaught no more power left in the Reserves even with French Plunder The RAF performed too excellently to go unnoticed and singlehandedly turned the tide in France early

March 41: Luftwaffe Hammers Danish BEF Defense forces breaking it Fullscale invasion of Egypt underway... Meanwhile in Brest Allied forced Pound the poor defenseless city by sea and by air...

Feb2nd 1941 Russian Readiness Raises... German forces regroup... ""Break down on the Battle for Paris""" we Encircled the mainbody with 2 armies and 2 corps, hammer with the armies first then letting the luftwaffe break the Siege, and the last corps enter the city breaking the French

Dec.8th 1940 Finally the French Surrender, after Major Losses German High Command is not happy with the war

November 10th 1940, Italian forces capture Malta and move in on French North Africa... The Italian Navy scans both Gibraltar and the Suez/Egypt Region both are defended France is whacked again but it seems an endless supply of Brit fighters of the assembly line keep beating back our attempts to crush the Democracy in time for Christmas Leave

October: the Conflict that was supposed to be over in weeks has become prolonged and painful for the Wermacht and the Luftwaffe alike. Though the French are definitely breaking rumors abound in Germany of a Long and 2 front War with Russian War Entry Seeming more and more eminant

Sept 15th 1940: Welcome Italy into the War to fight the evil Oppressors in France and Britian! German forces break out again in France, attempting to capture the Capitol though no direct attacks were planned. Denmark is besieged on all sides by the Royal Navy, looks to fall this turn. Malta is hit, and the fortifications there are failing as well as Southern France is invaded by Italian Forces without Leadership

August 25th Daring Luftwaffe pilots pull of breaking the French line South of Paris, a encirclement isn't yet possible but we hope will come soon. 109s and Spitfires fight it out over the Skies of Northern France again The Maginot is completely vacated and now German

August 11th The Kriegsmarine is dealt a deathly blow, all Baltic Cruisers are at bottom In France, Massive RAF counteroffensives along with fiesty French and British forces maintain and wreak destruction upon the German liberators there we still mantain an edge pushing evermore. cutting off Maginot and France now