Liam

It looks pretty 'fair' to me. I think your expectations are a bit lofty. I like what I see and I hope Hubert designs exactly what I'm imagining. It'll be the most popular Hex Strategic Wargame in History of PC

Partisans, wouldn't be effected by Technology but rather by the Nationilism and Peoples within conquered lands. I think you ascertain the type of Partisans, where they'd be, and the appropiate way to represent them in SC2 by simply looking at the history books. They weren't in such large groups strength 5 corps though, I can tell you that. hexes randomely changing control would be more accurate. Operations, failing to work would be a better represenation than knocking down the MPP value of a City, Resource, or Oilfield. etc... There are so many possibilities with this and indeed many nations had resistance groups especially towards the Nazis it would be good for us to all add our 2 cents here. I will say at the very least Yugo, Spain, Russia and definitely the USA all had basic movements in case of being attacked or conquored real estate. Turkey is a possible and Ireland as well.

Yes, Stukas with their sirens going, whistling down bombs with pinpoint accuracy was maddening. To feel your Supply truck go boom behind you as you reach down into the dirt and dig your head in deep to miss the MG Fire that comes from the second pass, the German Pilot in competition for which one of his buddies rack up the highest Kill Ratio. Of course at this time uncontested in the Air. Though in later Camps, those same pilots would meet their doom against able Fighter Pilots. Fighters are more for support of Bombers, and less as Bombers themselves. The error in SC to make the more than they are. Nuff Said

I would have liked to see the airfleets in SC1 have their air attack values reduced at range to represent the reduced ability of the escort/fighter component of the airfleet to "go all the way" to the target. The medium bomber component would have the same value at any range for ground or air attack value. But this would mean using a separate program for air combat results, rather than using the same program to resolve all combat. The only reason airfleets were so effective in SC1 (vs. Historical reality) is that the range of the escort component doesn't end at 3 hexes (like it would in 1940). In fact, medium bombers from both sides suffered devastating losses when operating without fighter escort. Either fighter/escort units will have to be made separately, or some range limitation will have to be factored into the SC2 airfleets (as far as resisting interception). Ken </font>

<Further remark on gametime, in Axis and Allies though the game is not similar, we have HouseRules and a Timer. Sometimes we setup that we can finish a whole game within 5-6 hours. Even less with a very able player and a good DSL/Cable Connection. 1 minute turns had it's popularity phaze and since I think fast, as some of you who've played will notice, I did well in that particular Field. I would say one of the top 10 1 minute timer players I myself, will say I hate people who take all night to finish a turn.. IP is for speed, play PBEM if you want to want to take 25 minutes per turn, or even 10 for that matter. A feature in itself that would kill the "BOREDOM" factor of waiting on a guy to do 50-100 clicks. If you're slow or disabled then let your oponent know ahead of time>

Excel: I didn't know about the little Finnish Save you're talking about. I do know that the B-17 Raids around D-Day were hellish on the Panzers in France attempting to kick the Allied invasion force out. Fact is though that the forest terrain of Northern France was difficult to scope out German Armor. Weather in Europe was often too bad to even do much damage, and in the East Front that's a whole other set of conditions to speak of there, vast, cold, many different combinations of terrain...I'm certian at our best hundreds of B-17s never once killed a whole Army or Panzer Army<let alone a division?>. The Germans never even possessed anything more power than a Medium bomber in vast numbers, just the HE-111 and that was a midget in comparison with the Lancasters and B-17s of the day. By late 1941 already the German Strategic Bomber command was obsolete and for an undertaking against Britian 1940. Panzer: I would love to be able to turn off interception, that is the biggest headache in the world to have a 5 strength fighter eaten up and you would rather lose a corps or ship. Not only that, it's not like flyboys are willingly going to commit suicide Toning down their power is very neccessary. If either of you fellows would like a test as to how I can beat you with just German Corps and 15 Air, I'll gladly oblige a little unbalanced dontcha think? Worse with the UK, if I get up around 4-5 4 Star Carriers you'll just want to surrender France to me. I don't think Historically Carriers played much a role in that job. Plus if you get good LR, you can use those puppies to take out some of Western Germany too, move into the Baltic and directly kill 1 Germany Army/Corps/Tank per turn, enuff said. Something is wrong with these Carriers<they've got Lasersighted Smartbombs on their Fighters >

Rambo, you're absolutely right. The Italians should have a maximum rated HQ of 1 They were very good at surrendering so I hear on the Eastern Front. Who knows what it was, they did have awful guns, bad leaders and no reason to fight a war<they'd rather stay home a drink wine and make love, the French would at least take a week off of that to fight some> Recounts the Major News about Italy during WW2: 1940 November 22 Major Italian defeat in Greece 1941 May 5 The Italians are driven out of Addis Ababa by the Allies. 1943 May 12 Capitulation of the last Italo-German forces in North Africa. 1944 June 4 Rome is liberated. Not including their defeat in the Italian French Alps in 1940<where they brought the whole Italian Army to face a few drunken Froggies> Losing Tobruk to the British same year, probably again by a few Drunken Limeys. Finally helping keeping Stalingrad from being surrounded and we all know what happened there ::pees himself::

I'm sorry folks, but no amount of your arguments could ever settle the fact that Original SC Air Power was out of porportion. Come on now, Swordfish turned into F-15s. Ground Fighters turned into F-16 Fighter Bombers with Smartbombs. Bahhhhh Be reasonable, breaking trench warfare in the future edition of SC should be done with the variety of Units available at our disposal and Aircraft should take their place as what they were historically. Not the numero uno deciding factor on the battlefield, cause they weren't. That's a WW2 fact, not fiction. Ask the Proffessionals! When I build 12 fighters per average Barbarossa Length Scenario there is a problem, I may even dedicate up to 3 HQs just to my Fighter Squadrons and nothing else. Also invest 90% of my tech into Fighter technology. Something is apparently messed up lately Rambo has me on a kick too, using German Carriers to clear the Baltic, what a bunch of bull. Impossible historically. Fighters, dive-bombers, and heavy bombers the primary air used during WW2 should be dictated as they were. They maybe influenced things a couple notches. They were very valuable for recon and for hitting the enemy behind the lines. They were the essence of Blitzkrieg in knocking down bridges/supply/key control points and hurting enemy morale but they were not solely unit destroyers. I'm not saying downgrade them into nothing, but I'm saying realistic folks. Some sort of limit on their capabitilies. Air should be delegated to a more realistic role. Fighters in particular were specialized machines. I'd guess most fighter missions weren't even about killing ground troops but rather gaining air supremacy. That's why they have just a few Machine Guns and small 20 Cal cannons on board.

Well, special forces is getting a bit precise or any such uniform in SC2. Although after you have your 1 lucky Army or Tank that's busted through 5-10 Allied Units and reached 4 Stars. It itself gives you a feeling of an Elite Unit. Not only that but when you use that puppy on the Eastern Front later in '42, you can bust through Russians with 2 Units and no air!

Patton was good, but not that good. He was definitely a high calibar General! Noone can doubt that. You have to give the Americans more credit than you do. They were a Supply Juggernaut. Their ability was in their power to get the supplies there, to get the men there, and the <medium or economic grade tanks there also> in time to do the damage. They made a few logistical errors but otherwise they made few mistakes. The Germans were very impressed by the American production. The Germans designed their equipment the old fashioned way with specialists bit by bit. the Americans who with the founder of the Assembly Line, Ford, mass produced items outta all their factories. The Ratios would make it that even if you killed 3 US tanks, you had 2 more comming. So where they lacked in Experience they made up for in Numbers and the US Military find it's quality nitch eventually. They were learning how to create Mass produced Quality Items. Less focused on Armor and more on Heavy Bombers and Aircraft. The US Aircraft could be called the best in the World 1943-44-45. Ask the Proffessionals. Those bombing runs were hell on the Germans, if it didn't destroy their production capabilities it definitely inflicted massive damage. the US should start with 2 level 2 bombers. IMO Also IT

Well, Rambo is right about some things, though the Civil War wasn't about Slavery, it was about a Way of Life I as a true Southern Gentlemen know that. Also those Heathen Engines weren't the only Natives of a province in a nation to be wiped out and re-populated. Russia, was similar to the USA, Siberia and much of the Northern Expanses were virtually unexplored but People did live there <we call them eskimos or just natives> So was portions of Norway. Austria, New Zealand and many other Nations were founded in a similar manner. In fact depends on how far you wanna go back that's for some off topic stuff for ya there

Well, guys, don't bring up the American Indians. There is now slight proof<it's in small isolated pockets that's growing with more Archeological proof, that the American Indians did in fact take this land from an earlier settled people and wiped them out the same way we did them > Everyone wanted them dead and their Riches. The Spanish, English, Dutch, French and Portaguese. The thing is the Indians though a Primitive Culture being Stone Age couldn't fight back. Remeber now HAD THEY been able to, it would've been a more fair fight. Had they say been at minimum Iron Age they could've put up a fight like the Chinese and Japanese did towards the same incursions of Mass Colonialism and Religious Conversion Attempts. If you go back 1000 years, the Japanese and Chinese may have been on more Par with the Arabs and ahead of Europeans... So they'd of seen us as Barbaric. Times change... Rambo most of these Indians saw our Religious Conversions as bad as Murder... They were very devoted to their Pagan Gods. Only about 1/30th of the Original Population of the Natives of the US survived between 1492 and 1900... However in one day didn't the Aztec Sacrifice 50 thousand of their enemies? Jesus Maybe the Spanish were only less human with diseases. They made them slaves and destroyed their Culture and religion but didn't gut their Heart and stick it on a Totem Pole. I think that a lot of the Settlers had good intentions but the cultures clashed and the Natives that conformed were basically alright, but those who didn't were going to be exterminated by what we Moderners still call 'progress'. The Japanese were Hellish... For the time, the 20th century they were Evil. They wanted to 'expand', and would've DOWed every nation on Earth and Fought every Nation on Earth to the last man for their "Empire." When that's not what we wanted. From the beginning we merely asked that they 'cut down a little'.<that being the mistake> Might is Right, yeah, it is... but I'd like to see the first man here to volunteer to be an Asian in a New Japanese Empire unscathed and left to be? Meanwhile post-war check the USA/Britian and France in Germany/Italy and Japan. They weren't harsh conditions in comparison. USA had their era of Expansion back in the 19th century, and they did their evils too, but that really isn't the topic. The Warcrimes of near extermination of a People is still debated today, in America. I dont' see the Japanese Debating their War of Atrocities? They stuffed it deep down, along with the Germans to be forgotton. They're all guilty, and why? Cause they were and still are. Sure you hear 'tiny bit' of "I'm Sorry." Few Billion to Isreal. Though I doubt that a majority of their population is sympathetic to the Pain they caused. They got away with it, IMO, due to the Fear of the Russians, raising the Red Flag everywhere. Though Honestly I think the Japanese and Germans along with all the conspirator nations should've payed out a lot more, especially since both now are the amongst the wealthiest nations in the World.

Kurtz, depending as Comrade said, best to dig the entrenchment up before you start wasting airpower or more expensive armor then finally army units on something.<why the Corp is the staple diet of any good offensive that and boy that unit is like a Land Cruiser... think there have been games against very very rookie players where I could win with only Air/HQ and Corps> Great if you can use Ships to weaken a unit too before you do anything. Carriers rock as hey, without air interception or being exposed to any enemy ships take no damage.

Well, I'll indorse this one. Plus Worldwide more affordabe Tech/Industrial Tech... As America would've produced many of these for the Allied powers who didn't have the capability but the money. And tech would've overrun into the Friendly Democracies, naturally... When US Joins so does much of the Americas which even at the time were a very huge portion of the World's Natural Resources and Industry. On the flipside, if Russia Falls the Germans should get a bonus from Japanese Technology and Resource Aide. The Japanese would've definitely aided their Axis Partners at such a point where they were so "well-to-do" and no USA threat nor USSR<Japan would've DOWed Russia and occuppied Far East>, who wants to see the Uber Colonials back in Asia again? Sadly most of the Iron used to build the Japanese Navy probably came from the USA.

The Japanese were the first to draw blood. Were the ambitious Empire Builders who fought bloody war after bloody war to get what they wanted. They DOWed Korea-China-USA-UK-and what remained of and the Dutch within a small span of time to build their Empire. These are only the nations that I can name. I'm certian the Japenese would've stopped after taking portions of Alaska, all the US Pacific property and that's for the Eastern Expanse? I doubt they'd of attempted an immediate invasion of the USA. The US and Allied Military were more humane. The Germans hated the Russians and Slavic people, they also didn't particularly like the French. They were Fair Game... If you do not believe this then merely look at the Mass Destruction that went along with their Wake? Japanese to a similar degree were 'harsh' on the Asians. More so than you'd expect. They like the Germans saw themselves as something special, racially and that the rest of the world was to serve them on hand and foot. If you want to cover this up, simply look at the villages that do not exist anymore? Look at the amount of art, antiques, jewelry and other items that were looted and pillaged. There were so many crimes in the Axis World most of the nations revolted with Resistance Groups and Partisans. To this day the world loathes German and Japanese in places, the point wasn't merely being conquored and stepped on, they were mistreated awfully. The Crime couldn't actually be written on a piece of paper in terms of amount of it. You can't create percentages and Figures, Ballparks maybe... The Cost in Human lives alone by murder still isn't a 'precise one' The Germans and Japanese treated their conquored Peoples like Slaves. Live in a controlled Minor aside from Scandanavia or the Netherlands to get a feel for this and you'll understand, Erwin Rommel was an attractive figure and so was Yamamoto but they were serving the Devils<so to speak>...<the crimes were not just rogue, they were typical of evil empires> The US and UK during that 'era' didn't technically do that.<there were isolated cases but to be honest, they were Rogues> I will not say there wasn't some honour in the German and Japenese Ranks, but sadly that was ruined by percentage of Folks who were evil. Apparently since they wouldn't surrender till the last man, the Dignity didn't stretch to the leadership where it may of made a difference ((Only difference between Russia and Germany at the time, is they were a bit less ambitious and they won)) [ March 31, 2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Liam ]

true, 1 per soldier is a bit much. I'm sure there was isolated cases of just rape though that match more a cool Mill. Not too much different. Although the amount of assualt, rape, murder, theft cannot be calculated

Skanvak, officially, probably about right, unofficially, I'll bet many many more suffered. I wouldn't want to count. Of course Japanese alone aren't to blame... Whole World had their dark secrets. Lastly, any Quebec related site on such information makes me a bit uncomfortable. They're one of the worst IMO in the World when it comes to Rape, Abuse, and Covering it all up. Look at Montreal, they put Runaway Street Kids in with Full Juvy Offenders. If you are caught molesting 20 children in Montreal, the Judge will likely just tell you you cannot see children anymore this I know for a fact from the street kids that live there, dozens if not hundreds.. next to Thailand it's a Pedafile and prostitution paradise. Exploitation Capitol of N.America. Though I hear Ontaria's drugs are worse.

Yeah I've noticed Sarge, of course the tehnically challenged person I am, I have an interesting question you lose actions points too don't you? By moving 1 unit attached to the same HQ, from some of the other units?

Wermacht, It's been a long time since I've purposely triggered a Siberian, only against a real rookie playing the Axis with these Monster Bids. I really felt so confidant that nothing he could throw at 10 4 star German Armies and 2 3 Star German HQs would matter. Although I've had cases that any capture of a city bordering Moscow meant Trigger. One where I slipped a corps into Rostov unprotected and immediately it triggered. Rarely have I seen it trigger if you stay outside of taht parameter. I think it best to halt up, build your Wermacht up in preparation for the Transfer so when it does happen even though you're a city or two short Kill him. The vitals are the first 4 FrontLine Cities, then Sevastopol<use this to do Amphibious Landings into Caucasus>, the first 3 mines and definitely Leningrad after they're polished off. Keep Finland Free if you can. Then by the time he gets a transfer you'll have 3 layer thick Wermacht, wait a year or two, with 8 fighters behind it and plenty of Tech to smash him to utter bits. Unless of course you're way ahead. Just make certian 'you're ahead' when you do let the transfer occur

True, battlefield Gas was not used By Germany, not like it would've done much. It wasn't trench warfare any more, units were more scattered. Hitler was blinded by Gas in the Trenches of WW1. Hell, if it was being used and I was a Fighter Squadron leader, I'd say our first priority is those enemy trucks carrying Poison, then let those handling it deal with the outbreak on their own men. It definitely wouldn't have made a difference IMO in WW2. They used whatever they could get their hands on that had killing power. Plus as they had in WW1, gas masks cut out 'most' the damage, enough for the average fighting man to keep going. Back on Japan. Atomics, at first aren't Chem Warfare, but longterm they definitely have radiation, a dirty sorta substance. Hardly what we might call payback.. For the Millions of Chinese murdered. The Millions of Asian women sold into Sexual slavery to serve the Japanese 'needs' who to this day have no compensation from the Japanese Goverment. Plus the Spineless attack on American and British/Allied Forces all over the Pacific. Remeber folks, the Japanese came to Midway to take the Island. They intended to take over India, and eventually carve an empire outta the World and fully support Hitler in a Japanese-German EurAsia. USA was merely in the way<however underestimated, the Sleeping Giant.>

Kurtz, don't quote me as I'm dyslexic I believe actions points have not only to do with how far your unit can move<each action point = 1 hex>. Although what i don't see in this reasoning is the name. Should be movement points... effected by various things. i.e. terrain "If you want to get real technical, turn on the the HexaGrid in the options, and watch all the various ways you can attack, plug and cut of supply of your enemy." [ March 30, 2004, 01:30 AM: Message edited by: Liam ]

Thing is I "BELIEVE" that LC was aligned with the Allies during the opening of hostilities too much to mean a DOW. Definitely Belgium wasn't going to resist France's heavy foot at the time so a DOW was very unneccessary<let us come through Mr. Belgium> <why sure Mr. France, go right ahead>. LC Turn 1 by Allies works, however do not "fail." as mentioned by others you're a dead duck. Plus if I'm really really lucky and well prepared I can cut a hole where they paste that fighter in the southern Maginot. Put your Armor Far enough south and paste a couple corps in Striking Range with 3 fighters backed by HQ it's open season. People generally use the fighter from Poland.. Unless they're real real lucky with those LC Dice. That means knock it down to at least 4 or 5 strength before it can be transfered over. Then you cut that Southern Maginot, insert Tank or Corps and bam... You do not need a Crossing Avatar caught me with my pants down in a Game like this, we never finished however. The game probably would've been won if I'd of put my Polish fighter down south, not assured though. Morale of the story, do not pull a LC Allies Gambit Turn 1. It's unethical but so is 12 German Fighters

the 3rd Reich never used Chemical weapons on who? What was the long range NYC Bomber for? to deliver Propaganda? What about all the Camps,they used them, selectively

It's only banned cause of the fact you can't fight back<but wait a minute, howa bout we get rid of the HouseRules and give the Axis a Bid instead! thatta way, no houserules just pure cash and that would even out whatever Rom Invasion could do. That's what we do anyways for the Allies which makes no sense. Same concept>. I'm sure if you sat there and thought hard enough about it you could take out the USA too in 1 turn. Beta and hotseat it awhile. Personally I miss taking Riga Rnd 1 of Barbarossa cause of bloody Rom invasion... <I've never done the invasion nor have had it done to me, it banned during the old Zappleague by the No Amphibious landing on Same turn as a DOW Rule. I suppose an easy answer for the Axis would be to DOW Italy right when you expect it to come with a bid and there ya go. Uber German MPPs no Rom Invasion. We owe this Invasion to Rambo, he's the creative genius of the SC Crowd>

First off, a lot of people bring up the fanatical Japanese as being something of a new and unique quality.<do you keep seeing that History channel special the Samurai and the Swatika?> Well, I think we've seen even with the German's on almost all Fronts, a bit as fanatical on the Axis side at least???<After the Humiliation and mass Ideology they were not exactly surrendering after 50% casualties cause they were motivated to the death, only some of the elder and less fanatical Germans saved them from being considered much worse> The British holding out alone during the Battle of Britian and N.Atlantic Campaign that was bleak at the time for them, as being partially fanatical. Outnumbered what 3 to 1 in the Air? Starving for Supplies... Down to a can of spam and no real Army to fight the Germans if they landed. Mother Russia, "the WW2 Fanatical Cup Winner." Paying 20-35 Million Souls for victory, the Great Patriotic War<a front for Stalin's wish to remain in power, his Personal War against Hitler. Although ultimately a deciding factor in the end of the Reich and good for us Western Allies> Secondly, No New brand Jet would've saved Japan, they would've came much too late. The Germans and Japanese weren't working together enough early on to make any other scenario possible. I've seen a few shows on Japenese jets, they were fairly 'aero dynamic' and 'effective' designs. Nothing they could've employed though against the US or UK Navys back in WW2 that would've turned the tide. The Japanese had shortages and the US Bombers would've smashed their industry and Airfields to a pulp. Having to attempt to mass produce that stuff underground is slow and tedious. The Special Projects by Both the Japanese Goverments and German ones are favorable towards ending the War earlier for them. If for all those Special projects one or the other could've pumped out.. say for Germany, 10,000 ME109s with 2 or 3 thousand Pilots... That may have pushed back the Western Allies a Season... The Japanese could've put out say 150 Mini Subs<they would've had an immediate effectiveness and if lucky could've tagged a few Mainline Carriers and thrown bigger blow that Midway>The Japanese Kamikaze had mixed effectiveness. Luckily for us, American's were very good at putting out fires on their Carriers and warships... Or that damage could've been far more extensive. As for Japanese Jets, even a couple thousand would've been massacred in little packs by Corsairs that were almost fast as Jets. or P-51Ds Lastly, you have to realize America was a friggin' Industry Nut like Russia. Once either of these nations got a pumping the other Nations were going to fall behind. Just like we find in SC, if you lose the MPP balance, unless you're a strategic Genius or get nothing but luck you'll lose. The Germans and Japenese both initially relied heavily on luck, massive undertakings that the Allies didn't expect, good sound Tactical moves that payed off. Ultimately their strategic decisions left much to be desired after France for Germany. She took a bad shot at England lost a bunch of Pilots and Fighters and turned East. In the East she never really took 1 of the Major Cities of the USSR Leningrad/Stalingrad/Moscow when she could've easily taken at least 2 IMO if she didn't fiddle... That may have caused that war to be more in decision. With Japan she lashed out at the Americans with the thought that longterm she could make up for her losses with Indies and Asian Metal/Oil/Rubber. Bad Idea. the USA came back with a vengeance and the Japanese fumbled after Pearl... to Sumise. I was told my Grand Father never spoke of his experiences in Asia, they were really really bad. He fought with the Nepalese, I have a knife they used. Has a sight on it for throwing, and it takes heads off they don't remove it without drawing blood either. The Japenese were taking on more than they could handle, and the just because they were fanatical doesn't mean those around them weren't some tough cookies. Chinese, UK Allied and US forces were too much. Throw Russia on that and I don't see the Japanese Point of view at all. Some real fools in their Goverment. 2 Atomics back then wasn't the End of the World, could lead to it now now with tens of thousands of Nukes out there and much more Powerful. it's a pity that people died from it, but War is Hell. I like the ole saying, "In love and in War there ain't no Rules!"