Iron Ranger

Looking from a Historical view I thought to go over the 'normal' starting tech levels and see if they should be adjusted for the early senerio's. AT - Leave at L0 for everyone. HT - Incress Russia to L2 at the start, the T-34 & KV-1 was better then anything germany could field until she started producing the Pz IV F and H. The armor she entered Russia with (PzIII and Pz IV D) would be L1 HT. AA - Leave UK and USA with L1 LR - L1 USA, Leave alone Jet - Incress German and UK to L1 at the start. They had modern mono-planes comparied to the Polish, Itialian and French air fleets. Maybe start USA at L2, tough call. HB - Incress UK to L1 (B-24s) & USA to L2 (B-17s) Sonar - Decress USA to L0 (useless tech anyway) AS - Leave alone (L1 for germany) GR - Leave alone (Some UK BBs should be given 1 exp point, but no tech advances) Rockets - Leave alone (I would incress USA to L1 but they can't transport them) IT - Russia increass to L3, USA decreass to L0 (sub rule, USA gets 5 chits at the start but must invest them in IT and leave them there till L4 or higher is reached). Nothing earth shatering, alittle higher Jets and HB with Russia getting one advance in HT. I would change afew non-tech issuses also. 1 Medal for the two german starting HQs. 4 of the UK BBs start with 1 Medal Exp. And the HR for USA, IT/ research chits (5 investing in IT at start). Feedback? [ June 12, 2003, 09:08 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

More good sub info from Dan. Only things I've noted different is you can have subs on the west side of Gabrater and cause raiding, I havn't noticed the supply level making a difference in the alantic but that could be where I'm getting the +/- value and not noticing if those subs are in high or low level of supply. Carriers spot out to 2 and gain one for every level of LR tech. [ June 11, 2003, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

Max damage to UK is 40MPPs in the alantic. Max damage to UK in med is 20MPPs. Alantic: (based on play test, could have missed some facts) Damage is 1 - 1 on strenght of subs with a max of 40 MPPs damage (total, not each for the two locations). Thier is also a random number of +/- 2 for each sub and a bonus number for each sub group (wolfpack) in the region (+1). So one sub (10) will do 8-12, 2 subs 16 - 26 ect. Best to use 4 subs and you will always get the max of 40. Med: (less play testing, but less need) As you pointed out two locations are max of 5 MPPs and one is 10MPPs damage. The two '5' locations seam to remain at max unless your sub in damaged to less then 6pts. The 10 location is like the alantice 1-1 with a max of 10. A damaged sub will normally give its value +/- 2. Breakdown: UK starting MPPs 135 Almost impossialbe to hold Epypt (-15) 120 Malta and Gabralter -5 each (-10) 110 Alantic, 4 subs (-40) 70 Normally Irland falls (+16) 86 Bombing a port or two (-5 to -20) 76 (avarage) So if UK throws away her navy and you want to go the sub/bomb port route you can really put a dent in the UK MPPs and gain alot of experence. These units also help it makeing the allies work for operaiton Overlord (or Round-up), but they do almost nothing to help in Russia and cost a ton of MPPs (subs are close to a air fleet each)

Interesting note on DOW against major powers. When Axis or Allies make a DOW against Italy or USA these countrys get one turns values of MPPs (180, 115). However when Axis make a DOW against USSR they get this large sum of MPPs, based on how later in the game the DOW happens, BUT it doesn't inclued the 480 she should also get on top of the 'delay' MPPs. If you look at the 1941 senerio 'babarsosa' USSR starts with 1200 MPPs. The 750 MPPs USSR would normally get with a DOW in June 1941 and 480 for one turns production. If you play the Fall Weiss 1939 senerio and make a DOW in June 1941 USSR will only have 800MPPs - is this a bug or done on purpose? Remember there was a bug with the cash USA recived when a DOW was made and they had MPPs comming from the editor, same bug, different area?

Already in effect (alantic only). The amount of damage to UK is based on the strenght of the subs. Its just hard to see because they only incress 1 for each tech and start at strenght 10. Looking over the rest of your list and I like it, many of the twiks that are needed you list. Exellent job. [ June 10, 2003, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

back on topic - House rules stink - but i'm trying to convince people to play me now with house rules - Ying/Yang life I guess.

The plan for the Panama Canal was done by the Japs (that I know of, a serious plan, involving a task force and seaplane tenders). There is an exellent book on the effects of sub raiding in US waters during 1942, wish I still had the book so I could give you the title. The german subs (only 2-7 at a time) were really causing problems and singlehandly almost pushed the allied shiping down the dain before the mass produced ship came into being. Another 2-3 months of tonage lost and operation Torch never would have happened setting the entire time table back one year. Interesting what would have happened then in USSR and the German Tech program (Jets, Rockets ect...).

Yes at time's house rule's Suck, and in general I'm not for them BUT: They are needed if its not possable for the program to see all outcomes. Balance, or more 'fun' / 'even' play For the reason's the Tierf listed a few days ago. We need to 'help' new players and beating the snot out of them in turn 5 is not the way to do this. So the bottom line is - are House Rules bad - YES - are the required in Ladder Games - YES, if evenly used.

I wasn't going to respond to all the talk on House Rules Generated by the RRI as I'm not involved with the ladder anymore. Then I thought, Zapps ladder is setting the standard by how all other games will be played and I should address this as I'll still play some games for Fun during the weekends. So here is my 5 cents on three subjects. 1) New 'trick': The Axis can invade Spain before Bulgeria joins and they will still recive this minor. This should increase the the date when this happens and allow the Axis contol of Gabrater and time to operate units to the Russian border before the Red Bear gets mad. 2) Ladder games are played for one reason, TO WIN. If people are not happy with the Rome invasion, too bad. The rules allowed it so it can and should be used untill it's not allowed. Remember this is war and a compitision. People that work within the rules and win, any type of win, should be allowed! 3) House Rules are needed. No program is 'compleate', we had one rule (covering for a bug) in the first Ladder, no sense in not having more rule. Weather your trying to balance the game or make it more historical, house rules are good IF they apply evenly to all sides. Suggested Rules for your league Zapp. a) If not done already, allow the DOW and invasion of the USA. Not historical but its in the game and should be allowed. ANY country cann't make a DOW and land transports on the same turn on enemy soil. In a way this is covering for the 'missing' bug of low readness/nonactivaton, when a hoard of troops sit on your border in ships. c) Increase the Russian Readness by 10 or 15%. By now everyone should have read the different posts on how to keep this down and there is no reason to allow the Axis to wait untill Dec 1940 before invading the USSR. d) Some citys (you can make the list) must be taken if no enemy units are in that city. London and Moscow are the primary ones but there are others that triger events and are being 'worked' around by 'chesey' but leagal moves. In a ladder game OK, as the objective is to win, but in fun games this is BS. I'm sure people will not be happy with these but if you want to generate interest and make people desire to play both sides, these might be required. Screw editing this - time for work.

I think we are on turn number 5, as Allies I'm ot going to post what I've done as I hope to use it in another game. Lets just say the British navy rules the wave's with L2 Gun Radar. The Itialian navy is on the bottom and the German Navy is just getting a taste of British powder, Poland has fallen but no major battles in France yet.

There seams to be a HQ 'range' bug in england. When placing a HQ hexs 19,7 or 20,7 (or maybe anywhere in the middle of England). You seam to be able to give unit support over 4(?) hexs at certian times. Test this by plancing a unit in London and a HQ in hex 19,7 (I think, could be 20,7). Even though the unit is 5 hexs away it will not 'light up' when checking if that HQ is providing it support. With this last report I leave the debuging to someone else. Good luck with SC2

I hate to see people lose because they didn't know some odd rule or bug so here is my second and last (maybe) list. 1) Allies do not need to retake Paris to use it as a 'major capital' supply base after operation Overlord. If they control at least one hex next to Paris, all resources with a path to the capital will upgrade to strenght 10. 2) Gabralter has a limiting reiforcement to str 5 until spain is attacked. Then you can reiforce units in Gabralter to 8. 3) I was going to write a 'major' review on bombers simialer to the post on rockets, but I figgered everyone will understand the importance of this without too much detail. Bombers reduce entrenchment by two levels for every attack. Combine this with thier 8 hex attack range and Germany (or england in France) can 'walk' right through set lines of defence. This makes holding a defense line very hard and much easyier for armored breakouts. 4) There is one MT hex in eastern germany (35,14?) that will not add one 1AP to movement. Watchout as a polish corps might us this secret pass to take a German city quickly. 5) When placing units on the Russian border, only use corps (and if you must no more then 2 armys) until your ready for invasion. Terif has a simialar post somewhere, the % increase seams to be based on the TYPE of units on the border. If you only us corps you'll see it increase by only 1-3% each turn (roughly). 6) A unit lanched from a port has the transport supply level of the unit. A unit landing will have a supply level of L10 and 100% readness no matter the supply level of the transport. I feel this is a bug and makes seaborn invasions much too easy. 7) Turkey and Finland have two OOB and will setup depending on who makes the DOW. 8) To stop partisans in Yougoslavia you need to have a ZOC in all MT hex's (three units). 9) To stop partisan units in USSR you need to have a ZOC in all MT, Swamp, and city hex's. This means 7 units in western USSR, 2 in central USSR and lots in eastern and southern USSR. 10) Readness is based on what I call the rule of 3. For every 3 levels of increased support (Supply, HQ, Strengh) you gain 10% readness. This is a simplified way of looking at the formula's listed in the Manual but easyier to use when determining when to reinforce or what HQs to use. Feedback?

Disorder - we are just getting started, I think I'll get my first turn tomarrow: we might ask for an extra day or two if the game is even.

As stated somewhere else if you put in one house rule, everyone will be asking for more. This game is loosely based on WW2 but germany never follows this route, becaue we know they lost. Now if the allies try to conter the known Itialian activaton (remember people weren't sure untill the summer of 1940 what italy would do, she screwed the central powers in WW1) we need a house rule to 'force' the game back to a 'normal' path? If so why not make several rules to keep going on this path? 1) Germany needs to attack USSR in the summer of 1941 or before (june, july) 2) Only corps and HQs can land outside of a port (stops this gambit). 3) No DOW during the winter months (Nov, Dec, Jan, Fed) and on and on.... most of these would be more 'historical' but better for game play? I think Rambo has now taken the wheel off the cart, question is can we really put it back on with House Rules or do we need to wait for SC2 / patch v1.08 (remember v1.07 was the last and final but we still are in the beta 'times') My vote: Still thinking but if need today - put in one house rule start planing on more. (Didn't we have a vote on the early version of the Itialian gambit? But with the increased cost of allied DOW it disappeared with v1.07?)

As you know already Zapp the entire game is based on who gets these techs fastest. Against average to new players you can still defeat them if they have a tech advantage in one or both but against good players you know your done if the oppisate side can reach L3 LR and has a 1-2 level advantage in Jets.

Congrats Rambo, good job thinking out side the box. Funny thing is just two days ago I came to the conclusion that the only way to hold the med for the allies was the premtive strike against Italy (three consictive failers of holding egpyt will do that). Never thought of pulling 2 F Armys off the line, was thinging more of wiping out the navy before the French navy went bye, bye. In any case good job. The game now moves from being a speed game (the first 10 moves really determine the winner, outside of 'lucky' tech advances) to now the game will turn on its head with the invasion of Italy on turn 5. LOL

In Germany one of the 4 MT hexs south of Berlin acts as a plains hex. Please check the movement rate through 35,14, you will note that it only take one AP to advance through this hex. I'm not sure if you recive the proper defensive bonus.

Even though your unit on this 'island' is as level 5 supply and not surrounded you can only reiforce it to strenght '5' - you should be able to go up to '8' When you connect to a major capital (Paris or Berlin) the port addvances to str 8 or 10 but the Fort stays at 5 - it should advance! The russian have a fort at str 10 untill it loses it connection to Moscow, so a str 10 fort is not unheard of.

Sounds like a good time - sign me up.

Iron Ranger joins this system

Bug from v1.01 and Hubert knows. This was listed in my post 'things everone one should know'. You might see one or two other known bugs in that posting that will help you in your HvsH games.

Joe - join the IP/TPC group and play HvsH and you'll really enjoy the flexabilty of the game. Just realize that the AI is quite predictable comparied to a human player and you'll lose (and learn) alot in your first few games.

Works best on finding players below - on the Opp. finder forum, also works well to set a planed playing time with another player. ( scheduleing ect...) Glad you can join us - the more players the better Read some of the post on hints for new players It'll make the gamemore fun if you know some of the tricks.

88MM, you time is your own, so you can do what you wish, But; I took a quick look and didn't see your name posted on the most resent 6 pages in the Opp. Finder Forum. How did you expect to start games if you don't look for any? On the flip side thanks for looking after the ladder this month. Anyone who volinter's their personal time to any group should be appreachated.

Thought I'd jot down some notes on the econmic breakdown of how the German war machine grows. Many of the experenced players call this the Cookie Cutter Plan for the Axis with the end goal of controling all minors by the second turn of the invasion of Russia (ok not Irland, Turkey, Canada or the Swiss) MPPs by group German 120 Italy 115 Begining 3 (Poland, Den, LC) + 50 France +56 Scandinavia (sp) +112 Balkins +160 (+10 for Italy) Iberian Pen. +85 (-10UK) NA and VF (Egypt, Iraq, VF) +136 (+15 Italy -15 UK) These numbers assume that you control all minors and the supply bridge through Gibraltar and Copenhagen. Allies will breakdown to 180 USA, 126 UK+Irland, USSR 480 Total Axis MPPs per turn 859 Total Allies MPPs per turn 786 However USSR will not hold at 480 but lose between 50-100 MPPs quickly and Finland will join the Axis and add an aditional 15-30 MPPs. Axis 920 Allies 700 - roughly So how can the Allies win if the Axis are making more MPPs, have a larger army after the front line in USSR is destroyed and have some very experenced units? They can turn the tide but your window of opertunity is small, 2-8 turns depending on the experence of the Axis player and if you still control the sea's. You need to hit hard and fast other wise the game will end by mid 1942. Because of this the game has a defenate pro-Axis slant when the player don't 'experament' with the different variable but play just to win.