Iron Ranger

If my source is right the last 'big gun' cruiser used in Nam is the "Newport News". She supported operations using her 8" guns to good effect. And yes the NVA was more worried about her then all the fighter bombers in the Navy. Now guys - how does any of this apply to SC? Just a question as this subject keep coming back like bad gas at a family picnic. [ May 20, 2003, 10:33 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

To be honest I look at 'Rockets' to be heavy artilery until you reach L3. It would be more in line with the Rail guns and massed batterys of equipment used by the Germans and Russians.

As stated above this is only a problem when there is a protracted battle in France. If an experenced player goe's the LC gambit route you might not take france till Nov 1940 or later. Once France falls the 'block' on certian random events is lifted and you might have your minors joining or an Yougoslava coup to deal with. If one or both of these happen the the end of your turn (Paris has been taken) and its latter then Oct 1940 you better have both citys garisoned and a few extra units around (all need to be above the MT hexs in the south of Poland). Or the readness level will increass by 10%.

As I said you should play test this, but I think you'll find I'm right.

I've played several newbies in the last week and thought maybe we need another list of known bugs and/or odditys. Here it go's in no special order: 1) French units sent around the Horn before the fall of france and that arive in egypt after the fall of frace will not becoume FF units. This means you can't reiforce them or put them on transports untill Paris is liberated. 2) If a capital is recaptured all hexs that don't have a 'liberation' unit on it will return to the concoring power. Specal note, any FF units in France will disband if allies take and lose Paris a second time. 3) MTs, swamp and channel hex's cost 2 APs and reduce supply by 2 for each hex. 4) Ground units attacking out of Rivers, MTs and swamp hex's are at 1/2 value. 5) Air units attacking out of MTs and swamp hex's are at half value. I suggest each person play test this as my work was some time ago, but this is what I came up with. 6) Until the fall of France you only need to keep one unit on the Russia border. But depending on when France falls this number could increase alot on the next turn. If you have a protracted battle in France make sure you get several units to the border the same turn Paris falls. 7) WAS wrong - sorry 8) Alot of people leave the Swiss alone. You don't get amy MPPs for controling the country but you do get plunder after destroying its two armys. 9) If you take England and let Manchester becoume the capital there is a bug that cause's this resouces to increase past '5' even though your not connected to a friendly capital. This means you can leave a HQ on the island and it will provide L10 supply to the defenders. This is very important to stop any couter invasion. 10) Fighers intersept out to thier Spoting range but they provide Bomber support out to their Attack range. 11) It cost's +1 AP to cross an enemy conroled river or enter a hex with 2 ZOC. Feedback anyone? [ May 27, 2003, 09:16 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

Rockets - this unit has to be the least used and most dispised tech in the game. Even Sonor get alittle love when the axis player go's heavy into Subs. I wanted to look deaply at this unit and see if we are missing somthing. I ran a few games in AI and pushed this unit for germany to see what would happen, also tried it in a few HvsH games. below is my analysis. Advantages: 1) Only unit that doen't recive damage when attacking. This means you can gain experence quickly, and as we all know a unit with 3-4 bars of experence can really pack a punch. 2) Only unit that you can increase its Soft Attack. Actually all attack values start at 1 and increase's 1 for each level of tech. Break down (soft attack only): Corps 2 -- Army 4 -- Tank 4 -- Air 2 -- Bomober 1 Rocket 1 at L0 and +1 for each tech At L1 tech its just as good as Air fleets and corps in attack ground troops and by L3 equal to Tanks and Army and keeps getting better! And there is no defence, its considered a Soft attack but there is no tech to increase Soft defence unlike Air Defence (AA) or Hard Defence (AT or HT) 3) One tech does it all. To really make Carrier's effective you need to invest in 2-3 techs (Jets, LR, Sonor) and slowly build experence without reciving return damage. With rockets you recive an increase in range with each level and a across the board incress in attack points. Disadvantages: 1) Air defence 0, just like HQs. You really need to control the air for this unit to build experence. Though it takes 5-8 hits to destroy, each hit is going to be draining the experence you gained earlier. 2) Slow, 2 AP just like HQs. This unit can't move and attack so only static battles work well or Strategic targets. Works best against ground units in the 2nd half of the battle for russia when things slow down to trench war, or pounding on resources from afar (London blitz?). 3) Spotting range is 1 so you'll need to spot your targets with air or ground units. Conculsion: If you can reach L3+ tech and have 3-4 bars experence this unit will control a battle field. It sheds entrenchment, causes huge amout of damage and can hit several hex's without needing to move. Problem: In HvsH games controling the air is all important. Nothing else matters as much so you almost never have the time to develop this unit. Since quite offen your trying to 'break' the other players Will, and no one fights to the end. We just conseade the end game where this unit would shine, final battles are never fought (much). Bottom line: In HvsH games you never have the time or money to develop this unit before the other player quits. Unless we see a force pool on Fighters it will always be better to spend your money elsewhere.

Bug - v1.07b - I think due to the change in port control after surender of a country. I've seen this in several games now. Under certian conditions, when VF falls to germany the ports will become Itialian and remain that way. This seams to happen when VF last's two turns but the ports are controled by Italy after the first turn, causing them to remain Itialian even though the hex and pluder go's to germany. And another French (kind of, Vichy French)oddity is reported. I'm pulling these down left and right these days!

LONG - Sorry If I remember the numbers right the pacifc was getting 60% of total produced US goods until after D-day, then they started getting more. We really didn't start sending considerable % of military goods to Russia till mid 1943 (food ect... only through thier eastern ports before then). So you for game balance the US force's and resources are Nerfed down. She starts with the smallest navy (had the #1,2 or 3 navy in the world depending on what you counted). But has a respectable army (started the war with the smallest major power ground forces). This was done to stop a quick and easy invasion and give germany a chance in the sub war. The fact is in a histroical account the US should start with 5 chits of R&D and be given the option to put all 5 in IT, this would be as close to historical as we can get with the present system (slow building of the war machine). The russian and english MPPs are not over stated. The english economy was global and they were reciving goods (and froces you don't get for 'free') from India to Austrilia and Iraq(!). The USSR had moved from a farm based system, to and past, the industrial revalution. In 1920 she produced less iron then germany, france, ect.., less coal, less everything. By 1935 she was producing more iron then France and Germnay combined and the same for coal mining, oil production and everything else, except food. In food russia couldn't feed herself, unlike 1914 and this got even worse when the Ukraine was taken. The bottom line is to balance the game Hubert had to adjust down someone (USA) and shorten the Map (Alantic and eastern USSR) to give germany a chance. There is no way in this game to show the incompitance of the Russian military after the purges or the hate everyone felt for the german invaders. So what we get is short alantic and the end of russia near Stalingard. This is good but bad, making Stalingard a major battle ground if the axis reach it, but also making it a for gone loss for russia because they can't hid HQs at that point or manovor units behind the city. There will be no last stand in Staingrad in SC - If germany can reach that far in force - USSR is done!

No secret patch but your luck seams to run in other directions. In our present game you did the LC gambit on turn one, managed to get poland to last 5 turns and got lucky with the odd ball USSR readness rule after a extented battle in france. So I guess my luck ran with me getting L2 jets with only 1 chit. Its all luck, or making your own (luck).

No secret patch but your luck seams to run in other directions. In our present game you did the LC gambit on turn one, managed to get poland to last 5 turns and got lucky with the odd ball USSR readness rule after a extented battle in france. So I guess my luck ran with me getting L2 jets with only 1 chit. Its all luck, or making your own (luck).

Not a bug with v1.07 but a thought on one change from v1.05 to v1.06. Ind. Technology: In V1.05 this gave each advance a 10% reduction in cost. Both USA and USSR start with L1 and L2 respectivly. I assume that these levels were picked for play balance, giving 18 and 48 MPPs rebate in base MPPs. When v1.06 came out the tech changed to 5% reduction but the tech levels for USSR and USA did not go up to L4 and L2 to keep the value's the same. Should these be adjusted?

"sack-up"? I know(!) I'm not getting enough tang from the lady's but there is no way you grizzly haired generals are going have me step-up and 'sack-up' with one of you. LOL Rambo you make me laugh, thanks for including me in the Icon spit but I haven't beaten you (damn bug)or Terif and company so I'm not sure I should be included in that group. The Ladder crap aside (its a game, not he betting board in Vages), what I think your seeing is two seperate groups and their desires. One is looking for a balanced game with an anything go's metality. The other is looking for a more historical account. Both can be satisfied in each game, bidding for gamers, house rules for the historical end (mine are listed elsewhere) but both groups will never be completly satisfied at the same time. I'm sure my spelling sucks but I'm not editing this anymore (carpy keyboard to boot!)

If you read the first line I talked about my prefreance for the 'historical' war. In the pure game sence the rule should be removed. In the historcal sence the axis would never had the shiping to invade the US unless England had fallen or joined them. Also the game is very Nerfed on the strenght of the US forces, they had the 1st to 3rd largest navy in 1941 but one of the smallest armys. In the game they have the weakest navy (even Russia start with more ships) and a good sized army. Its just not real that geramny could lanch an invasion force and the US not know about it before hand - the surprise landing in this game should wipe the US out in 2-3 turn if you really put your froces to it.

It would be nice if all minors (those with more then 1 unit) had 3-4 starting OOB positions. And they had a break down/ persentage based on who was attacking. Right now only Turkey and Finland (Greece?) have OB that adjust. Spain, Yougoslova, LC, and Sweden should all have changing OOB (not norway).

Are you polling for SC2? The AI should never reclaim unless it reachs L5 in the tech. It already does a poor job in distrubution of Tech and the game is too complex for its limited fuzz logic. Example: One game the AI as Axis was lucky or put alot of money in Subs - reaching L4 by 1941 but it only purchased one sub. Mean while its L0 tanks (alot of these) are pounding themselves to death on my L3 AT Russian infantry.

Nice to see someone taking on the Ladder. If you think changes need to be made I would suggest that you post your Ideas, look over the responces, and make the change. Your doing this on your free time and if you have invested as much time as 10+ games you'll have a good idea of what would work best. Every system can be improved, nothing is every perfect.

I'm going to vote against making this change. I'm more interested in the history side and less into the 'pure' gameing side of this and other issuses. As a game this ranks very high with may options and paths that each side can follow, though one or two are clearly the best. And seams to be very balanced with the side that makes the smallest mistakes wins (or the side that understands the huge number of unwriten rules/quricks). To be honest I think we should have more 'house' rules to bring the game more in line with history. Can a really experenced Axis player be defeated without some luck in the Tech side of the game or an odd ball mistake because of some unwritten rule? Suggested house rules to bring the game in line with history: 1) No LC gambit until the start of the 5th turn. 2) No invasion of USA or Canada unless England is Taken 3) Seaborn invasions can only be conductd by corps - Armor and Armys must land in a port - HQs can land in a port OR on a friendly hex. 4) USA starts with 5 chits in Tech but all must be invested in IT and can't be removed untill you rach L5. Other chits can be purchased and used normally. 5) Spain can't be invaded by Allies unless they hold Portugal - Spain can't be invaded by Axis unless the hold Malta and have conducted sub operation in the Alantic for 3 turns costing UK 40 MPPs each time 6) If any of 5 key citys are empty you must advance into them. Moscow, London, Berlin, Rome, Smolenski. This list is just my thoughts and looks more at the Polictical and Econmic side. Others might want to add units or start countrys (Iraq, Irland) as allies. Note: This is just to bring the game closer to histrory, its well balanced now and enjoyable to play as is. The problem is the lack of unperdicablinty now that many of the rules are known and there is little 'surprise' factor (aka - FF units, Sibrian Transfer, location of Operation Overlord, ect...)

Iron Ranger Lost to Codename Condor (axis). Very hard to stop axis once they have the 'loop' of Spain to Iraq

Iron Ranger Lost to Codename Condor (axis). Very hard to stop axis once they have the 'loop' of Spain to Iraq

Good job Bill, an extensive and exellent work. This should help all the beginers get up to speed fast and not feel so over whellmed when they can't take France in thier first IP game.

In a game with CC I sent one of the Africain French corps around the Suez Loop before France Fell. The corp come out on the other side after the Fall of france but was not a Free French Corp. This ment that I couldn't reinforce it with British MPPs or send it on a transport. Sounds funny now - the last french unit hanging out in egpyt with my other cast off units, and doomed to die. Bad luck for me as this caused Egpyt to fall 2-3 turns sooner - minor but an annoying detail. Suggestion for SC2 or patch 1.08. Setup an UK colonial troop transfer simialer to the Siberian Transfer (most of the troops that fought in the middle east were non-british). Say the Indian 4th Army, South African 1st corp, and the Anzoc Matidla Armored Group. And make the troops 'minor' power type, same as the Canadian units. Might give the British a chance or holding Egypt under anything but the most extream pressure from the axis. Not sure what date would be best - Fall of 1940 + or minus a few turns.

During SeaLion in v1.06 Russian readness would not go up until the axis held a city in England. During this operation in v1.07 the russian readness does not seam to rise untill England surenders (I think). Any changes on this? Edit - Ok more detail - Captured London then the rest of England in the file I send you. Russian readness did not go up, but only Spain had joined the Axis. Played another game (file on disk) and took London. Checked the Russian readness and it was the same the next turn (Jan 41). Turn two after taking London both Romaina and Hungery joined Axis (not spain) and the Russia readness jumped from 46% to 78% in one turn. I've seen several games with v1.07 that Manchester or Ednburg are taken before London and the Russian Readness does not rise the following turn. So I guess my question is still - did this change with V1.07? [ May 10, 2003, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

I did some detailed testing on the Paris Supply bug and put a note on similar post in the Tech section.

Just did a detailed play test of this. The resources in France (and any where you can link to) will advance to ten if you hold a continues line from the EDGE of paris to the resource. The allies do NOT need to control Paris to use it as supply base for thier resources. If you do not control the hexs around Paris your resources will stay at '5' other wise they will advance to '10' - Sorry for the confusion above, all of this referes to the liberation of France - [ May 05, 2003, 11:16 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

Iron Ranger Consedes to Rambo (axis) with a bid of 150 MPPs. Game was ended due to unknown bug. "second conquest of capital". Thought this bug only applied to France because after Paris is liberated it rejoins the allies as an 'active' country. I (we) were wrong - it applies to any country liberted ( don't think you recive a second set of plunder). If a capital is liberated and you marched over any hex's to gain controll and supply through these hex's then lose the capital again (reconquest) ALL hex's in that country that you do not have a unit on (ZOC no good) revert to the concoring power - leaving any of your units out of suppy and unable to operate out. This bug is partically bad in larger countrys where you will need to trace large lines of supply (In this case Norway and a British army group traped in the MTs). Watch out for it in France, Norway, Spain, and the Balkins mostly. [ May 05, 2003, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]