Iron Ranger

Several threads have asked questions on what HQs are and desires to change some aspect of thier atributies. I thought I'd jot down my thought on them and perhaps this will help some of the newer players. In theroy what HQs are: These units are the C&C center of an army group and the huge supply tail of all the combat units that are attached to that HQ unit. They are full of R.E.M.F. (not combat troops), they have supply dumps of fuel, water, ammo ect.. Lots of 'soft' trucks to move this gear. Lots of communication equipment, 'true' hospitals, training facititys, entertaiment facitiys ect... They are the one unit that could be severally damaged by air attacks (sorry gazza) and require skilled solders to effectivly operate. In SC what they are / do: HQs are slow (action point 2) - all those huge supply dumps are hard to move. HQs act as a 5 factor city - Those huge supply dumps can provide some assistance to alot of units over a limited distance. You can also link friendly HQs back to a city (range 2(?)). HQs have a range of 5 for providing support to a max of 5 units - Have to set the limit somewhere and this gives you enough units to use a 'combined' arms approtch. HQs are easy to destroy - those REMF run and scatter real fast and fuel dumps will blow up with only a few well placed bombs HQs are only as good at the man at the top - The Germans had the most effective officer training at the time and it shows with all their HQs being good and some great. A boring read but the bottom line is I think they are close to historical. Expensive, slow, easy to disrupt. I'm not saying that they can't be improved but they are not combat units and should be gaurded above all else, ie not put right behind the lines or on the line (normally). [ March 28, 2003, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

I thought 1.06 was to solve this problem, the 'three capitals' section of the rules adjustmen that came with the patch should cover this. As far a ladder games - some VERY gamey moves will not be 'allowed'. Word will get out if one player uses such moves and he might find it hard to get players to match skills with him.

The Free French units were never trusted by the US or UK, too many political problems. Thier only common bond was the dislike of Germany. I don't remember the exact event but at one point in late 1944 (plunder of Germany?) they disagreed on the policy set by Ike and refused to allow US units or supply through their ZOC (this was a devision sized unit), they were surrounded by combat units and 'forced' to follow the allies plan. Some friends! And good reason why they recived the cast off equipment. In the frogs defence, Ike was a political fool and his only thought was on winning the war and getting everybody home, fast. In his defence he had to follow orders from Washington, and the very sick/druged up president FDR.

Why can the allies operate air units into Africa but not into Russia? I've tried this even with Iraq in allied hands and you still can't move units from USA or UK into Russia - this seams to give the advantage to the Axis on being able to apply force to any sector while the allies have to play catchup.

Good AAR guys , thanks. Very nice closing statement Wachtmeister, I think you hit the key. Allies have to counter attack, but doing it too soon and you can't hold your area or maintain your units. Attack too late and the Axis will have Fortress Eroupe set up and you will find operation Overlord very hard. Truly a fine line. [ March 20, 2003, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

Santabear: On Dutch Gambit and Setting Russia, I'm not sure what you ment by this being a winner for Axis in AI games. But note that playing the AI and HvsH are to totally different games and complexity. On the "Norway Flop". There are two ways of going about this. One way is to use a ton of air and two transported units, each unit lands on E&W side of the Capital the air wipes out the ground corp - and your unit on the east side marchs into history. The second way invloves 1-3 air and 4 transported units and works around the ability to capture the port with a ZOC after the unit on the city is destroyed. The best way to learn this and any other 'trick' is to play some experenced players. Almost all are willing and interested in helping cannon fodder move up to spear catchers and beyond. Just hop on the forum and find a 'partner', but do try to understand the basics of the game and have read the user manuel, no need to memorize, just the basics. [ March 19, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

Santabear: On Dutch Gambit and Setting Russia, I'm not sure what you ment by this being a winner for Axis in AI games. But note that playing the AI and HvsH are to totally different games and complexity. On the "Norway Flop". There are two ways of going about this. One way is to use a ton of air and two transported units, each unit lands on E&W side of the Capital the air wipes out the ground corp - and your unit on the east side marchs into history. The second way invloves 1-3 air and 4 transported units and works around the ability to capture the port with a ZOC after the unit on the city is destroyed. The best way to learn this and any other 'trick' is to play some experenced players. Almost all are willing and interested in helping cannon fodder move up to spear catchers and beyond. Just hop on the forum and find a 'partner', but do try to understand the basics of the game and have read the user manuel, no need to memorize, just the basics. [ March 19, 2003, 04:21 PM: Message edited by: Iron Ranger ]

Iron Ranger loses to Irish Gaurds (axis) bid was 150 Rather disapointing to see Germany roll right through Moscow when all the axis controled citys are at 0 (partisans 4 turns in a row) and you have a L6 entrechment. Once again this game reinforces that the Allies need to play a 'perfect' game to have a chance and get lucky in Tech. L3 german jets vs L1 or L0 is a killer. Be both played mistake free till I 'burped' during the third turn (didn't retreat fast enough) of the attack on Russia and lost 6 corps and 1 army. After that I couldn't plug my holes and purchase HQs - so contious retreat to the end. No stand at Stalingrad!

Rambo (allies) beats Iron Ranger with a bid of 150mpps. Rambo used the double gambit to perfection and starting spawning corps everywhere using the money from the Itialian citys - Axis couldn't advance at this point. Suggestions for attacking the gambit: Be carefull of sending units in transports after the attack - allies rule the med Your going to need more money - you might want to attack Yugo since the % readness will have droped alot. Norway if you think you can get past the British navy or Hungery/Greece. You need to move fast before a defence can be set in the south - once all the river hex and Mt hex have entrenched units your done.

I would say e-mail Zapp as he is keeping the records for the ladder - and doing a damn good job at it to.

I'll concede the point of type of units to the master, but in my play tests the type of units did factor (seamed to, random generator my be the cause) in the amount the readness would incress, less for armys (in citys) but you don't want to place too many units in the border region, you need balace. But as stated there are alot of varibales to work on in that area. Best if each person did thier own play test to work out these finer points as you can only exchage limited info without posting a map. Side note: Units used in the readness count only are registered if above the MT hexs in eastern Poland. Only play tested once so I might be wrong on this but my games have born out this fact.

I'll concede the point of type of units to the master, but in my play tests the type of units did factor (seamed to, random generator my be the cause) in the amount the readness would incress, less for armys (in citys) but you don't want to place too many units in the border region, you need balace. But as stated there are alot of varibales to work on in that area. Best if each person did thier own play test to work out these finer points as you can only exchage limited info without posting a map. Side note: Units used in the readness count only are registered if above the MT hexs in eastern Poland. Only play tested once so I might be wrong on this but my games have born out this fact.

Good advise Terif, and glad to see the Master posting it. The only thing I would add is on the Russian border; you need combat units IN the citys after the fall of France and as time progress the TYPE of units is important. Armys are better then corps ect...

Good advise Terif, and glad to see the Master posting it. The only thing I would add is on the Russian border; you need combat units IN the citys after the fall of France and as time progress the TYPE of units is important. Armys are better then corps ect...

As far as can tell it only happens when the intersecpting Air cause's so much damage that the attacking air is destroyed before reaching its target.

lol - saw this and thought how funny

If you really feel that something is wrongsave the game (or rename the auto save). Play test the situation, ie can it be reproduced, maybe the extra land units are corps ect.. (cheap). And if it still a problem contact one of the tech support people and see if they can 'disect' the game. I have one game in my file thats 'fishy'but have decited to let it pass. Sometimes it can be pure luck (but not # of units, you have to buy those). Played one game where my oppoinet had L3 jets before the fall of france and watched two of my armor get destroyed by out of supply corps, but I was hosting and I simply was unlucky that game.

Good subject, interesting to see how it changes over time. in the past few weeks with a shift to the 'super carrier' plan and a total air war only I've shifted what and when i place chits in R&D. As the Germans I now try to get 2 chis in AA rader ASAP, nothing like see those expensive cariers beat themselves to death on a port or city and all I have to do is sit and watch (and get lucky with 2-3 upgrades in 1940). GE 0 2 2 0 2 0 0 1 0 0 2 9 SU 2 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 1 5 Br 0 0 0 3 3 1 0 0 0 0 1 8 US Changes every game depending on UK

I think the idea in showing units as ships in the reports is to represent long range scout planes and spy networks (at least thats the way I look at the report data). With the units representing armys, corps ect... were talking about alot of shiping and this would be noticed by alot of different source's.

Reread my post, sorry on the spelling and grammer. I guess both suck after being awake since 9am on Thursday. I hope the post is not totally unreadable.

I'm interested in hear how many people play the game past 42. Many of the latest post deal with the 'imbalance' of the system. However, how many games really reach past 42 when the allies stop the axis and into 43 when they turn the tide back. Normally one player or the other get too depressed after 1-2 major mistakes and asks for terms (I've done it many times, why play for another 3-4 hour when you know it's a lock for the other guy) Personally I've only had two serious games reach past mid 42. And one of them I'm still playing and we've reached mid 44. The game has followed a very historical arch, even though that was not our intent. 1939 Normal 1940 Germany cleans out France and beats the daylight out of England. However all their sacrifice is not in vain. They hold out till fall 40 and save an entire army group of FF troops, however the brit lose all thier fighters and one carrier. Late 40 - summer 41 Germany eats as many minors as she can getting the historcal ones plus Sweden. The british jump the Itialian navy off the coast of Greece and sink most of her ships. They also take North Africa. Italy lands in Canada and steals some MPPS. Late 41 - Germany invades Russia and applies the standard 'kill everybody' opening move. In the second turn Russia see's an exposed armor in the swamp east of Riga and attacks. An entire army (HQ back, so good readness) group goes after that one armor. After the combat the Red Armys entire northern army is weakend and the army sits in the swamp smileing at one strenght. The ensuing counter attack wipes out several units, only one corp get out alive. After this it's retreat, retreat, retreat back to the finial river defence. We now wait for 42 - the Siberian units have soldified the allies lines and Germany is reiforcing like mad. The western allies take scicly. The FF army group takes Iraq. Summer 42 The battle of Stalingrad at Moscow. Backed by 10 air fleets the german army pushs forward even though supply is low. Thier opening move destroys the Red Armys best HQ and batters all her fighters. Then the gray host slowly pounds forward and takes Moscow 2-4 turns latter. The allies realize this is the KEY battle operate the entire FF army group to stem the tide and send in the American HQ and all her fighters and counter attack (russia also drains her R&D and brings every unit not on the line back to the Moscow front, this kills the push to knock out finland before the geramns arive). The counter attack works and two armor groups and the 4th army are surrounded and destroyed plus other minor units. The sucess of this battle was due to pure luck, in the span of 3-6 turns the American air went to L4 jets while the Germans and Itialins were still flying L0 planes, the battle field was HEAPED with wrecked axis air fleets. 43 stailmate - The americans march up the boot of Italy is slow and the landing a Anzio fails with the distruction of the first army. On the bright side USA teachs the Itialians another lesson in L4 jets vs L0 biplanes. The brits are training her ground units in the Mts of Norway and cutting supply line everywhere with self made partisans. In Russia the Red Army is boged down. The German army is too experenced and entrenched to push back, however where they can find axis minor or itialian units they attack, destroy the unit and slip a corps in its place. In other words a slow grind forward while she builds experence. Germany attempts a 43 Sealion but is repulsed when the American jets operated back to England, note germany has L2 jets now and some air fleets do survive this time. Very early 44 - Overlord - Two seperate landings take place in France, but they do NOT join and the western allies are left with two seperat pockets of troops and can't effectivly push forward. They do pull a large number of german units out of russia and now the red tide is flowing west. The Red Army still can't attack the german army directly but she has so many corps and pushs them into every hole that apparies the the germans have to give ground. The eastern front is one fluid mass as Russian corps move forword and suround german units then german tanks (L3) show up and destroy everything in their path. At one point the entire german army was seperated from the Fatherland, this only lasted one turn as there are plenty of HQs to provided some form of supply to the gray host. Present day - Late 44 - The two bridgeheads in France have finally joined and the supply situation is starting to resulve its self in Italy. On the eastern front, one to two german units are being wiped out every turn and the baltic region has been liberated. I don't know how this will finish but looking like a mid to late 45 ending. But like Patton said during the Battle of the Bulge "we can still lose this war and talk of being home by Christmas is pure bunk" or something close to this. With one or two tech advaces and alittle luck the Axis could still turn the tide, they still out number the allies in units since they went to buying corps to plug all thier holes and the HQ all have 4 bars of experence while the allies might have 1.5. How many other players have gone this 'deep'. I (and perhaps everyone else) would like to hear whats happened in these other games? Or is it always like when I play Terif. I make a minor mistake (I think) and he pounds and pounds on that area untill its a critical problem and the game is over. One thing I learned was the extream dificalty of a true Overlord, not a quicky 42 version that gets pushed back easy, but the hard grind pushing ahead in hegrow country. Enough for now, I've been up for 26 hours. Any comments would be appreated, even another miny AAR. I'm just interested in hearing how many other games end up close to balanced and therefore run past 42. And so the question really is: Is the game/ system imbalaced and needing a fix / house rules or are the level of players imbalanced? Side note this was a ladder game with a bid of 150MPPs and the LC gambit was used to hold back the gray host.

Perhaps I havn't played enough games HvsH but I have seen the russian front act acording to history and it become the decisive battle ground, at times. But what your getting into is players game play. I know your going to hit on this later but two quick points on this. 1) The unlimited man power issue. This is due to the lack political consiquences of attacking all the minors and the gain in MPPs of controling these countrys. If you play a game and Germany only controls the areas historical they entered, by 42-43 they will be streched thin and unable to build units every turn. As it stands now, most good players will control every main land minor and most is not all the med BEFORE the attack on Russia in the fall of 41, at this point they can't be stoped, thier getting more MPPS then the allies combined. Game over. 2) Peoples game play in Russia. Most players try to hold as much ground as possiable. They won't trade space for time and end up in the middle of the board getting pounded on by a well supplied German Army(s) while thier low readness corps are eaten alive. Sure they can plug the holes for a year with more cheap corps but the Germans are gaining exp and by early 42 don't even need to reinforce thier units - then they build 10 more air fleets and Eroupe is a true fortress. Game over. I think what I'm trying to say is the Allies need to play a near perfect game to match the axis. I didn't know why untill now. Your bringing to light the advantage of the Attacker over the Defender is why its easier for player to 'handle' the axis side and why everyone (outside of Terif) has such a hard time 'handling the allied forces. That was rather long winded, sorry. What I'm saying is the Game play for the grey guy is easy and the allied game play takes alot of skill.

- My 3 hexes wide 'Barbarossa' Maybe were looking at this in the wrong way. While a limited force pool is a good idea, it might limit the stratgys players use and deny them the fun if trying "what if" games. I think we need to look more at the political side if we wish to make the game more historical. Think on it - when was the last time someone attacked Russia in the late spring of 41, normally in this game its in the fall of 41, after all the minors have been taken, this is why we have a 3 and 4 hex deep attack in the first turn. So some house rules would be in order - anyone can post some, but here is my list. 1) If Germany attacks Sweden thier Finish brothers realise that maybe Germany isn't such a great protector and joins Sweden to defend the frozen north. In game Germany DOWs Sweden - she must do the same to Finland (unless she has already joined, inwhich case - no big deal) 2) If Germany attacks Spain, facist's everywhere realise that Hitler is not interested in a "new world order" but in personal conquest for Germany. In game if Germany DOWs Spain - she must do the same to VF and Iraq on he following (!) turn. 3)If the western allies attack the LC Italy figures to take a bite out of France while she's diverted up north. In game if allies DOW LC - they must do the same to Italy. (this is already a problem as the "Double Gambit" - but here you'll need to do it on the same turn so you'll really have to think on the consiquences) 4) Last and most important - USA stay's the same in readness, affected by DOW in eroupe. But Russia is now different - Germany MUST DOW by the end of July 41 (or before). If not the game ends with Hitler being assinated in Augest by his Facist brothers for not folowing through with his promiss of "Living space in the east" (Libistromin?). Russia set to "Newtral" in the start menu. With this rule you'll quit seeing the super punch that is now the standard form of attack in the first turn. Players will not longer buy 7-10 expensive air fleets and not worry about the ground units for Russia - they'll have to start buying them ASAP in 40 to have enough in 41 for the attack. Just my 5 cents worth - sorry if some of the spelling is off.

Good subject, in looking at the present game the idea of spending more for the 10 air fleet just won't work. Could be a nice adjustment for SC2 but for the present only a limiting force pool will work with todays game. Without me saying that its needed or not, what are your thoughts on the size of the different force pools? Remember by 1944 every country was scraping the bottom for additional manpower. You also make a good point that the size of your force pool will go up as your take more teritory (Germany had whole SS divisons made up of French, Scandinavian, Russian people) while the brits were using troops from India ect...

Go for Iraq, many players feel it is the key to Allied Victory - the oil fields plus the fact you'll have a land conection to an allied capital will yeild great results. Ireland is nice way to train some air units, but I wait till USA in in the war or go for it right away so you gain the most from it's one city. Portugal is not a good idea unless you plan on taking Spian and use it as a base of operations